Livingston - all the threads merged

[EdinburghLivi]

Is that from the current debt, or future debt the next regime will run up? I cant see how anyone associated with livvi could be impressed with anything less than 100p for every pound. What will it take to get livvi fans out of this idea that its acceptable to run up debts and then not pay them off

I think you've missed my drift.

What I mean is that for every pound that the club earns, the club will only spend 99.5p of it. Leaving .5p per pound for something else.

[Homer Thompson]

I think you've missed my drift.

What I mean is that for every pound that the club earns, the club will only spend 99.5p of it. Leaving .5p per pound for something else.

Yes, I guess I did.

Now I understand the quote, its a stupid thing to say. Totally meaningless

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Is that from the current debt, or future debt the next regime will run up? I cant see how anyone associated with livvi could be impressed with anything less than 100p for every pound. What will it take to get livvi fans out of this idea that its acceptable to run up debts and then not pay them off

Far from it. They were "saved" by the SFL and left in Div 1 without any penalties - yet! Massone has now sold up so the interm manager is now free to sell to the consortium thats waiting in the wings, and who has guaranteed first division football for next season.

You are preaching to the converted. The penny is gradually dropping on a larger scale though, albeit at a slower rate but it is getting there.

[MB]

You are preaching to the converted. The penny is gradually dropping on a larger scale though, albeit at a slower rate but it is getting there.

I sincerely hope so because good football fans deserve a good football club.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Here's the 'truths':

1. Livingston have shown time and time again to be unable to sustain a First Division side without financial mismanangement.

2. McDougall et al are pledging not to financially mismanage the club

3. Their business plan relies upon First Division football.

Now, I keep trying to put those three into an order that makes logical sense, but somewhere between First division football and 'no financial mismanagement' it keeps falling apart? Is there something I'm missing in all this?

'Brass neck' springs to mind when dealing with these new chancers. I'd be concerned if I were a Livi fan and they went down anyway this season, no?

Edit for typos.

The biggest brass neck has to be Rankine's - an utter nonsense that this man is allowed to be in charge of a football club.

[Numbers]

Well I am sorry E.Livi, but thats the biggest none statement i have ever heard.

You will spend all but one half pence in the pound you earn. What kind of business plan is that???

What happens if you only get say an average of 1600 fans per game. By the time you have paid back some of the CVA, wages, rent, rates and so on your going to have a shortfall unless you drastically cut back some where.

Are your existing players going to take a smaller wage as thats where your biggest outlay will be. Are you going to have a smaller squad. What level of security will there now be. On average that costs about £12.50 per man hour unless you have your own certificated event personel which would cost you about £7 per man hour. Policing is darned expensive too.

I think you have only been told what you wanted to hear pal. Your going to need at least 2000 for every home game to just survive at the very minimul level.

One things for certain, your 1/2 pence in the £ is going to build a good bank balance, in 10000 years.

[EdinburghLivi]

Yes, I guess I did.

Now I understand the quote, its a stupid thing to say. Totally meaningless

Not really. If they keep to their promise (I see no reason why not) then that means the club is sustainable as an entity going forward. We're not going to end up in hundreds of thousands debt if we run the club like that as opposed to the way Madsone was running it, as Ged Nixon comically said spending "£6 per pound in recent times".

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Longmuir has already made the following two statements:

"But demotion wasn't considered because the prospective buyers of the club have a business plan that involves Livingston being in the First Division."

By Longmuir's logic the fact that Dundee's long-term business plan involves us being in the SPL means we should automatically be there.

Longmuir is truly an arse.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Longmuir has already made the following two statements:

By Longmuir's logic the fact that Dundee's long-term business plan involves us being in the SPL means we should automatically be there.

Longmuir is truly an arse.

Have a word with Longmuir then

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Yip, I said yesterday in this thread that I couldn't understand anyone getting involved in buying a football club, particularly in this financial climate, however Angelo Massone has made £50k profit on his "investment" inside a year, enjoyed a year of corporate jollys, unprecedented publicity and accommodation, cars and flights all paid for as he fannied around between Scotland and Italy.

Seems like a good deal to me.

What I particularly liked was the quote I read on the BBC site saying that he hadn't ruled out getting involved with another Scottish Club in the future

Let's hope it's one of the Old Firm . . . .

[Homer Thompson]

Well I am sorry E.Livi, but thats the biggest none statement i have ever heard.

You will spend all but one half pence in the pound you earn. What kind of business plan is that???

What happens if you only get say an average of 1600 fans per game. By the time you have paid back some of the CVA, wages, rent, rates and so on your going to have a shortfall unless you drastically cut back some where.

Are your existing players going to take a smaller wage as thats where your biggest outlay will be. Are you going to have a smaller squad. What level of security will there now be. On average that costs about £12.50 per man hour unless you have your own certificated event personel which would cost you about £7 per man hour. Policing is darned expensive too.

I think you have only been told what you wanted to hear pal. Your going to need at least 2000 for every home game to just survive at the very minimul level.

One things for certain, your 1/2 pence in the £ is going to build a good bank balance, in 10000 years.

Not really. If they keep to their promise (I see no reason why not) then that means the club is sustainable as an entity going forward. We're not going to end up in hundreds of thousands debt if we run the club like that as opposed to the way Madsone was running it, as Ged Nixon comically said spending "£6 per pound in recent times".

No, see above

[EdinburghLivi]

No, see above

To be honest, I don't know the main details of the finances so I'm not going into it in more detail than I have (digging myself out of the hole ) but I'm certainly pleased that we won't be spending more than we have coming in to chase some ludicrous dream. That was the message I was trying to get across, I obviously don't see that as the main business plan.

[MCL]

Well I am sorry E.Livi, but thats the biggest none statement i have ever heard.

You will spend all but one half pence in the pound you earn. What kind of business plan is that???

What happens if you only get say an average of 1600 fans per game. By the time you have paid back some of the CVA, wages, rent, rates and so on your going to have a shortfall unless you drastically cut back some where.

Are your existing players going to take a smaller wage as thats where your biggest outlay will be. Are you going to have a smaller squad. What level of security will there now be. On average that costs about £12.50 per man hour unless you have your own certificated event personel which would cost you about £7 per man hour. Policing is darned expensive too.

I think you have only been told what you wanted to hear pal. Your going to need at least 2000 for every home game to just survive at the very minimul level.

One things for certain, your 1/2 pence in the £ is going to build a good bank balance, in 10000 years.

We've already started reducing the wage bill with Chris Innes going to St Mirren today. You're only counting income by takings at the gate whereas there will be sponsorship, hospitality, conferencing, etc bringing in money too. When the Almondvale Suite was going good guns it brought in £60,000 a month going up to £100,000 at the Christmas period.

I think what was meant by Nixon's comments is that we won't spend more than we bring in unlike other times when we were overspending. Living within your means with proper budgets which are adhered to. I think the fans have woken up and this board will be scrutinised more closely.

I also think Albion Rovers will have one of their largest crowds in a while tomorrow so they will enjoy a spin off from all the upheaval. Hopefully a lot of the lapsed fans will see that apathy will kill the club and will come back in numbers.

[raith_94]

Well I am sorry E.Livi, but thats the biggest none statement i have ever heard.

You will spend all but one half pence in the pound you earn. What kind of business plan is that???

What happens if you only get say an average of 1600 fans per game. By the time you have paid back some of the CVA, wages, rent, rates and so on your going to have a shortfall unless you drastically cut back some where.

Are your existing players going to take a smaller wage as thats where your biggest outlay will be. Are you going to have a smaller squad. What level of security will there now be. On average that costs about £12.50 per man hour unless you have your own certificated event personel which would cost you about £7 per man hour. Policing is darned expensive too.

I think you have only been told what you wanted to hear pal. Your going to need at least 2000 for every home game to just survive at the very minimul level.

One things for certain, your 1/2 pence in the £ is going to build a good bank balance, in 10000 years.

He said NO MORE than 99.5p in the £1

If at the very least there isn't a points deduction then the SFL have failed in their duty to preserve the integrity of their competitions. Airdrie spent no more than they earned and have been relegated for their troubles. Livi spend money they'll never have , stay up, and just ride roughshod over the SFL 'management' , with their new owners threatening to withdraw if they're disadvantaged and the SFL 'management' roll over and have their tummies tickled. Pathetic. The clubs must ensure a vote takes place and an appropriate deduction (somewhere between 8 and 12 points) takes place , and future clubs who transgress get the same.

Reasonable Livi fans accept they deserve a deduction. After all this isn't a first offence.

Livingston FC: So evil they make you feel sorry for Airdrie

[Homer Thompson]

To be honest, I don't know the main details of the finances so I'm not going into it in more detail than I have (digging myself out of the hole ) but I'm certainly pleased that we won't be spending more than we have coming in to chase some ludicrous dream. That was the message I was trying to get across, I obviously don't see that as the main business plan.

Fair enough, I know where youre coming from.

However, my point was simply that this is a very easy thing to say, not necesarily easy to put into practice.

What happens if your outgoings are £2k a week, for example, but your income is only £1.5k? Very little of a football clubs outgoings fluctuate, staff wages, player wages, security and police costs, rent, NI and tax etc etc all have to be paid. Where does that leave the promise of 95.5p in the pound? Bills not being paid again?

[EdinburghLivi]

What happens if your outgoings are £2k a week, for example, but your income is only £1.5k? Very little of a football clubs outgoings fluctuate, staff wages, player wages, security and police costs, rent, NI and tax etc etc all have to be paid. Where does that leave the promise of 95.5p in the pound? Bills not being paid again?

I imagine cuts will have to be made if that's the case. I can't see Rankine or McDougall dipping into their pockets to make us break even every week.

We simply cannot get to that level of debt again.

[Numbers]

Yes MCL and those figures look good, on paper, but they are not profits, are they.

At this stage you have no sponsors. I doubt you have much hospitality sold, if any.

Theres a huge assumption there will be no apathy amongst your fan base. And of course your assuming visiting fans will attend in fair numbers too. They have warned you on that score.

What you have been told is that the club will save 1/2p for every £ it makes. It hasnt told you it is going to have to drastically slash its budget and operating costs and hope the gates remain constant at around 2000.

Oh and forget your figures on the almondvale suite. Theres a very deep recession and theres going to be a lot of bad feeling from local business so that source of income will generate far less than expected.

Welcome to the real world.

[doogster]

Sorry but your wrong. The Rovers were on this path 3 years ago 24 hours and we would have been down the swannie and without a boat let alone paddles. But fans and the trust (Whom i do not support) came together and the save the rovers was formed. They saved our club and all creditors are getting paid. Have you or your trust dont that

Clyde have seen there problems and acted accordingly.

Stirling Albion have too and in fact raised £300000 to buy there club

Stranraer acted and with help they are saved, but all creditors are getting paid.

Dundee went into admin, but all there creditors were paid.

In each and every case all the above are honouring their debts to creditors.

Now tell us all why you should be any different. Pay up or shut up shop and start again in a different league to begin with.

In the interests of fairness, you are correct that all creditors were paid. However, they got 2.5p in the pound (most of the creditors were Dee fans so accepted this). I should be able to let my "hate the Marrs" campaign go, but it's still there.

Of course you can. Dundee hived down almost all their debt to two subsidiary companies last year.

This is news to me. As far as I know, HBOS couldn't believe the amount of credit we had been given then waited a few years and effectively dissolved most of the debt. My understanding is that Bennett (ex and prospective United director) will sell Dens and the Dees debt to Melville for £500K.

Doesn't put us in a good light but compared to Livi we're clean as a whistle!

[MCL]

Yes MCL and those figures look good, on paper, but they are not profits, are they.

At this stage you have no sponsors. I doubt you have much hospitality sold, if any.

Theres a huge assumption there will be no apathy amongst your fan base. And of course your assuming visiting fans will attend in fair numbers too. They have warned you on that score.

What you have been told is that the club will save 1/2p for every £ it makes. It hasnt told you it is going to have to drastically slash its budget and operating costs and hope the gates remain constant at around 2000.

Oh and forget your figures on the almondvale suite. Theres a very deep recession and theres going to be a lot of bad feeling from local business so that source of income will generate far less than expected.

Welcome to the real world.

We have only just survived so I wouldn't be surprised if there was no hospitality sold The first home game isn't for a fortnight though so plenty of time to get some organised. Now the club has changed hands officially I fully expect those sponsors that had gone awol to appear again such as RDF.

The figures for the Almondvale Suite were for a year or so ago and there is a recession so obviously it will take a hit but it will still generate money over and above the gate money. I think local businesses will come back to the club as they will know Massone is away and in a recession they will be looking for income streams.

I'd be happy to work for the club again and would be confident of getting paid. I could produce the images for posters/postcards/calendars to be signed by the players and sold at a profit to the club. They have my number

[Numbers]

I like that smile at the end. Chancer.