Livingston - all the threads merged

[Freedom Farter]

I've commented a bit on De Lucas but here's my full thoughts:

I imagine he was on a low wage given he'd only played amateur football until turning professional in Finland at his club immediately prior to Livi. The bedding in of him in the latter months of last season was promising without being convincing. 

De Lucas liked to defend as high and as far forward as possible, something he could comfortably do due to his good recovery pace. Playing right of a back three, that worked well. Then came consecutive Old Firm matches where he was used in a back four with Brandon the right back beside him. That was a very poor balance as both are aggressive pressers, Brandon is an attacking full back - he's really a wing back. Neither Brandon nor De Lucas held their position and that right side of the defence was a mess in both games.

De Lucas was dropped for the next match away to St Johnstone despite a return to the back three. For me, the decision cost us two points that day as Parkes and Sean Kelly both came in and performed poorly. De Lucas was brought back into the team for the Motherwell match then Killie away the following week. He made an excellent covering block on Vassell who Devlin had been dispossessed by yet later failed to prevent Vassell scoring from a crossed free kick. 

Then the fateful Dundee match where Martindale blamed De Lucas for the Shaughnessy goals. There's certainly logic to that but it could also be asked why De Lucas was put on Shaugnessy given his set piece failure on Vassell in the previous match. Regardless, that match effectively ended De Lucas' Livi career. He decided to leave the club in the aftermath and only featured in a couple of fairly meaningless Old Firm matches thereafter. Donnellan was soon sourced as his direct replacement.

De Lucas had clear strengths and clear weaknesses leading to a mixed overall package. Could probably have been managed a bit better than he was. Now that he's gone, not an important loss.

[Livi]

7 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

De Lucas had clear strengths and clear weaknesses 

Rumoured on the fans page he stuck the head on Martindale?

 Would it not have been better for the club to just say we've agreed to part and he leaves rather than say he's homesick as that was clearly not the case given where he has signed on post Livingston era.

[Freedom Farter]

You don't isolate players and shame them in front of their peers. Especially if its a foreign player as they're more vulnerable to social exclusion from the wider in-group (fellow players, fans, media). Gary Holt actually did this when he called Aymen Souda "rubbish" in a national media interview very early into Souda's Livi career. Its little wonder Gary Holt's relationship with the player turned visibly fractious after that. Well similarly, if Martindale screamed at De Lucas in the dressing room (I've no idea if he did) and De Lucas is from a culture where that's not done, I can imagine a violent response taking place (again, no idea if that actually happened).

However, falling out then soon after falling back in happens all the time in dressing rooms so that won't be why De Lucas chose to leave. His desire was to be a starter and he knew he'd get his chance to show his worth early season while Nottingham was injured. De Lucas didn't do enough to convince Martindale in that period so Nottingham went straight back into the team upon returning from injury, locking De Lucas out.

The home sickness thing avoids the suggestion that the player wasn't good enough. Instead it frames it as the club having had to let the player go against its wishes, which looks good for the player. Its for the consumption of the wider football public, not Livi fans.

As Livi fans we know why De Lucas left because Martindale explained it in the relevant match review. De Lucas knew he wasn't ever going to be a regular starter and wasn't content with a back up squad role.

[The Wrong Car]

I have to say  I'm a bit dubious about the rumours he headbutted Martindale. They only seemed to come to light when he was leaving, despite it apparently being public knowledge for a few months. It seems like the sort of thing that would leak from a fractured dressing room fairly quickly. 

Martindale has previous for sidelining players for months on end for all sorts of reasons, so the fact he still included De Lucas right up to his last game doesn't really add up. There's a few folk that insist that Martindale has lost the dressing room, using De Lucas as an example, however I'd argue the performance against Hearts went some way to refuting that . 

Just to add - I liked De Lucas as a player. He was a bit suspect positionally, and lost a few physical battles for an aggressive CB but he added a fair bit of pace to a slow backline. 

 

 

[LiviLion]

2 hours ago, The Wrong Car said:

I have to say  I'm a bit dubious about the rumours he headbutted Martindale. They only seemed to come to light when he was leaving, despite it apparently being public knowledge for a few months. It seems like the sort of thing that would leak from a fractured dressing room fairly quickly. 

Martindale has previous for sidelining players for months on end for all sorts of reasons, so the fact he still included De Lucas right up to his last game doesn't really add up. There's a few folk that insist that Martindale has lost the dressing room, using De Lucas as an example, however I'd argue the performance against Hearts went some way to refuting that . 

Aye, I feel like him headbutting Martindale would have been grounds to sack him for gross misconduct, and I doubt Livi/Martindale would think twice about the chance to get someone out without having to pay them off.

As FF says, "homesick" is just nice (albeit transparent) PR that makes him look good to outsiders while those at Livi know he just wasn't quite up to it.

[DavideFernandezLoveChild]

Was told the headbutt story about a month ago and considering so many have heard it I tend to believe it may be true. 

[Durnford]

28 minutes ago, DavideFernandezLoveChild said:

Was told the headbutt story about a month ago and considering so many have heard it I tend to believe it may be true. 

Was told this story by one of my wife's friends quoting that the original source had been another player in the first team.

All that being said I'm extremely sceptical; letting it go would simply erode discipline in the dressing room still further and LiviLion says in any other business this would normally result in immediate dismissal and escorted from the building. A possible exception here would be if this was in retaliation to an earlier assault or if, perhaps, the offender in question was viewed as too valuable to the business to let go - unlikely in these circumstances.

Unfortunately there seem to be more than enough people in and outside of the club with an axe to grind; also some players have been told they've no future at the club and have been trying to get them out the door since last season. the list of candidates is substantial.

That being said; its not impossible.

PS Is that enough sitting on the fence?

[mozam76]

3 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

You don't isolate players and shame them in front of their peers. Especially if it’s a foreign player as they're more vulnerable to social exclusion from the wider in-group (fellow players, fans, media). 

I can’t find the video just now, but there was an incident a while ago where Mo Sangare was in front of journalists in the media room, and the manager walked in and demanded that he take of his “hat”. I don’t recall exactly what it was, but I think it was perhaps like a male headscarf or a durag. Sangare looked embarrassed and a little unsure of himself afterwards. 

[DavideFernandezLoveChild]

26 minutes ago, Durnford said:

Was told this story by one of my wife's friends quoting that the original source had been another player in the first team.

Well my source also told me that it was from a team member as well… 

[Durnford]

52 minutes ago, mozam76 said:

I can’t find the video just now, but there was an incident a while ago where Mo Sangare was in front of journalists in the media room, and the manager walked in and demanded that he take of his “hat”. I don’t recall exactly what it was, but I think it was perhaps like a male headscarf or a durag. Sangare looked embarrassed and a little unsure of himself afterwards. 

That sounds like really poor man management. Maybe it was meant as a bit of banter but there really is a time and a place.

[LIVIFOREVER]

Was Martindale standing on step ladders at the time?

Given how Robinson was binned when on a purple patch scoring goals for us, after having a tantrum about being subbed back off in a game, i just can't see a player that wasn't getting starts being in the match day squad after head butting him.

[CharlieWhisky]

Managers fall out with players all the time, I don’t think there’s anything out of the ordinary here. If anything, I reckon we’ve had fewer players leaving under a cloud in recent years than other clubs on our level.

Obviously now the team has been less successful on the pitch we go looking for issues off the pitch - I’m not saying there’s nothing to be concerned about but it’s not a ‘this season’ thing.

[RandomGuy.]

Chinese whispers about them "butting heads", IMO.

[Menga Bus]

Similarly had heard the headbutt story a good amount of time before the departure. Actually think a lot of our early success this season was reliant on de Lucas, motm several times. In a back 5 he was able to play aggressively chasing interceptions and stepping high, still has one of the highest amounts of interceptions in the league despite barely playing in the last few months. Very quick for a cb which allowed him to recover from his quite regular errors. Not sad to see him or Parkes go though, as I’m praying we will finally change our shape.

[Freedom Farter]

Boyes made his first team breakthrough last season, becoming a regular from late December 2022. De Lucas then broke into the team in March last year. They ended the season as our established left and right centre backs, respectively, as a back three was used for most of that period. It wasn't a solid defensive unit, folk will remember, but that wasn't down to De Lucas and Boyes. The problem was that Obileye's injury meant Fitzwater instead played as the middle centre back and was terrible.

So we had a perfectly serviceable back three already there from last season. De Lucas, Obileye and Boyes. Cover was needed but not particularly upgrades. Yet Martindale was like a magpie seeing a shiny object when he compulsively grabbed Devlin and Nottingham. With that he signed two older, more expensive players to replace a couple of younger, cheaper players who he'd successfully grown into the team over time. That went against his own established way of doing things and we can probably now with hindsight say it was the wrong decision. I don't think Devlin has been better at left centre back than Boyes would've been, then while Nottingham was an upgrade on De Lucas, he was signed injured and didn't become available until late November. 

Anyway, that's all done now. The players currently at the club are good enough to forge a solid defence from.

[RawB93]

19 hours ago, ATLIS said:

Homesick  

Tbf my first ever job involved me moving to Livingston and it was fucking shite. I lasted 9 days. He's actually done really well to last a year.

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, RawB93 said:

Tbf my first ever job involved me moving to Livingston and it was fucking shite. I lasted 9 days. He's actually done really well to last a year.

I moved to Livingston in 1981, and am still here.

[Durnford]

4 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

I moved to Livingston in 1981, and am still here.

Aye; but its got some good points as well; unlike Dundee.

[LIVIFOREVER]

29 minutes ago, Durnford said:

Aye; but its got some good points as well; unlike Dundee.

Aye as well as the mighty Livingston FC, we've got a world famous skatepark. Which incidentally, was built in 1981.

Cheap pint in Dundee tbf.

Edited January 9 by LIVIFOREVER

[mozam76]

Livi Trust meeting slated for Sunday 21st January at 2:30pm. 

Hopefully all interested/relevant parties will be able to attend, either in person or virtually.