Sweet Pete Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Are there no "secure" staff that you could get steered into action. Information is power. I am the staff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stimpy Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Hot water bottle doon the troosers it is then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Dufresne Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Just seen a gritter on the M9 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Cheers, Stimpy, but this mob simply don't give a f**k and my contractor status means I'll be fobbed off. Again. Is it not the case that contractors can be regarded as employees for provisions like these depending on the character of the work they provide (e.g. if they report to a superior, are required to work regular hours/shifts in a particular premises etc)? Companies can't use "contractor" status to weasel out of things like minimum wage provisions if the character of the work provided is sufficiently similar to the nature of a contract of employment even if it's officially not one. That said, it's probably easier if you can persuade an actual employee to kick up a fuss... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugster Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Is it not the case that contractors can be regarded as employees for provisions like these depending on the character of the work they provide (e.g. if they report to a superior, are required to work regular hours/shifts in a particular premises etc)? No. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 No. DirectGov: Normally if you are self-employed for tax purposes, you will be self-employed in relation to your employment rights. However, if you are self-employed for tax purposes it will not prevent an Employment Tribunal from finding that you are an 'employee' or a 'worker' for employment law purposes. If he's contracted for a prolonged period and, as I mentioned above, is subjected to a superior, required to work a regular shift and he is not permitted to delegate the work he does to someone else, he could be treated as an employee for employee rights purposes notwithstanding the apparent situation of a contractor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Ad Lib, as per, you are correct in theory, but not in practice. Something of a pattern is emerging... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugster Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 DirectGov: If he's contracted for a prolonged period and, as I mentioned above, is subjected to a superior, required to work a regular shift and he is not permitted to delegate the work he does to someone else, he could be treated as an employee for employee rights purposes notwithstanding the apparent situation of a contractor. We have hundreds of contractors, who have worked in the same role for years, and the very same role as other people who are employees. We've had zero tribunals, or approaches regarding this. The real world is different to what the government want to paint as the picture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 We have hundreds of contractors, who have worked in the same role for years, and the very same role as other people who are employees. We've had zero tribunals, or approaches regarding this. The real world is different to what the government want to paint as the picture. He means well, Ruggy, but it's all still a black and white paper exercise for him. He's a very smart (and pleasant) lad, just lacking in practical experience. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Ad Lib, as per, you are correct in theory, but not in practice. Something of a pattern is emerging... There's an increase in pursuing these issues. Employment Tribunal cases have dealt with this a fair bit. The issue is less one of it "not being true in practice" but the majority of contractors not having cause for complaint or believing it worthwhile pursuing. We have hundreds of contractors, who have worked in the same role for years, and the very same role as other people who are employees. We've had zero tribunals, or approaches regarding this. The real world is different to what the government want to paint as the picture. Just because you had no tribunals, doesn't mean others haven't or couldn't. He means well, Ruggy, but it's all still a black and white paper exercise for him. He's a very smart (and pleasant) lad, just lacking in practical experience. It's not *that* much of a black and white paper exercise. I don't know if you saw the BBC Scotland documentary on the minimum wage about a week or so ago, but there were instances where people were being notionally put self-employed on commission but still subjected to a line manager and fixed working hours who, by the letter of the law, should have been receiving the guaranteed NMW. The big scandal was that there had been only a handful of prosecutions since the laws were introduced because the relevant government agency was woefully poor at enforcing it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Your fitting square pegs into round holes, Ad Lib. I'm not self employed so that I can earn less than NMW, I'm self employed so I can earn more, not less. As for implementing an employment tribunal, I have no just grounds (other than the need to wear a jumper) and I'm a limited company. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Your fitting square pegs into round holes, Ad Lib. I'm not self employed so that I can earn less than NMW, I'm self employed so I can earn more, not less. As for implementing an employment tribunal, I have no just grounds (other than the need to wear a jumper) and I'm a limited company. Aha. Those circumstances are unlikely to trigger it. Bit in bold is the material bit because a company isn't a natural person and in any case could delegate work. The issue with the NMW point wasn't as you were describing, but an example of a situation where Employment Tribunals will override the superficial situation and supplant it with employment rights. Edited October 19, 2011 by Ad Lib 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p&b is a disgrace Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 DirectGov: If he's contracted for a prolonged period and, as I mentioned above, is subjected to a superior, required to work a regular shift and he is not permitted to delegate the work he does to someone else, he could be treated as an employee for employee rights purposes notwithstanding the apparent situation of a contractor. You're confusion indicators which determine employment status with entitlement to employee rights. You are either an employee - or you are not. You cant "choose" to be an employee just because it suits your particular desire at that moment in time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 You're confusion indicators which determine employment status with entitlement to employee rights. You are either an employee - or you are not. You cant "choose" to be an employee just because it suits your particular desire at that moment in time. Employment status declared by an Employment Tribunal can refer to little else than the attempted assertion of statutory employment rights. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Aha. Those circumstances are unlikely to trigger it. Bit in bold is the material bit because a company isn't a natural person and in any case could delegate work. The issue with the NMW point wasn't as you were describing, but an example of a situation where Employment Tribunals will override the superficial situation and supplant it with employment rights. Why are you telling me things that I already know? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p&b is a disgrace Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 The big scandal was that there had been only a handful of prosecutions since the laws were introduced because the relevant government agency was woefully poor at enforcing it. More likely that people will not pursue this because ( in the long run ) it would be to their disadvantage to pursue it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Why are you telling me things that I already know? I wasn't "telling" you anything. I was clarifying my earlier comments in light of additional information you produced. Now put your rod away 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uni Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Truth be told here, snow is fucking shit and should f**k off and here's hoping not one flake falls this winter! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 More likely that people will not pursue this because ( in the long run ) it would be to their disadvantage to pursue it. Not that it necessarily applies to me, but this is the crux if the matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I wasn't "telling" you anything. I was clarifying my earlier comments in light of additional information you produced. Now put your rod away I see you've learned to choose your targets ;-) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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