Hillsborough debate

[Itwiznaeme]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf15PAPnAik

[AyrshireTon]

This is from a Mirror article, written I think by a survivor which quotes the Taylor Report.

"Instead, Lord Taylor laid the blame squarely at the door of the police.He highlighted their planning failure which allowed " dangerous congestion at the turnstiles" and ruled that "the immediate cause of the disaster was gross overcrowding, namely the failure, when the exit gate was opened, to cut off access to the central pens which were already overfull.

"They were overfull because no safe maximum capacities had been laid down, no attempt was made to control entry to individual pens numerically and there was no effective visual monitoring of crowd density."

He hit out at the police's "sluggish reaction and response when the crush occurred" and claimed that the total number of fans who entered the Leppings Lane terrace " did not exceed the capacity of the standing area".

So much for the thousands of ticketless fans theory.

Did not exceed the capacity of the Leppings Lane end. Which means that ticketless or not, if the police/stewards had directed fans into the more empty pens instead of allowing them to flow into those behind the goals, tragedy might have been avoided.

That, I agree, highlights the blame apportioned to the police etc.

Still does not change what may have happened if only ticket holding fans went to Hillsborough that day.

[yoda]

Unfortunately for you i am The Real McCoy and you really are pathetic. The wee laughing smiley's that you and your scummy friends have often posted along with your scummy posts on this thread showing no respect to the 96 dead fans or their 10s of 1000's of friends/relatives fool nobody.

People do have respect for the dead and their families. People don't have respect for Liverpool fans that are partially responsible for the deaths of their fellow fans and refuse to accept any responsibility for their actions. Do keep up.

My personal view is that the cover-up is scandalous. However from what I've read/watched both the police and the fans need to take responsibility for the 96 deaths.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Some on here seem utterly desperate to blame Liverpool fans, despite all that has been revealed recently. Also what relevance does Heysel have to this thread? That's correct, absolutely none, but some still evoke it in a desperate attempt to smear the Liverpool fans, as if this is indicative of their behaviour, much like an attorney/solicitor/lawyer will bring up something from a witness' past and desperately try to make out that this is in fact what they are like all the time, and see see, look what an awful person they are, they once did something a while ago and so they must be an awful, awful individual. Heysel was the result of a small minority of Liverpool fans, yet this is being used to slur thousands.

So why are some of you so utterly depserate to make out what bad people the Liverpool fans and how they are to blame? And yes, I know none of you have said that they are entirely to blame, but your pathetic, scrambling desperation to make out that they are to blame for a part of it is saddening and shows that you are utter wankers.

Now what you need to do is quote single passages whilst ignoring others. You can also post numerous smiley face varieties when quoting the post, or perhaps one of several GIFs you lot use, or maybe a photo with something like 'Why so mad' or some such 12 year old internet bollocks. Or you can use the classic 'verge of tears, 'seething' etc type responses. And don't post one in 'jest' now either.

^^^ Sobbing uncontrollably

[Musketeer Gripweed]

I'm just watching the ITV documentary from the other night at the moment, and I just noticed for the first time that the police still had a cordon on the half way line to stop the Forest fans being attacked ( I guess) at 3.18pm. Why have I never noticed that before?

[Itwiznaeme]

I'm just watching the ITV documentary from the other night at the moment, and I just noticed for the first time that the police still had a cordon on the half way line to stop the Forest fans being attacked ( I guess) at 3.18pm. Why have I never noticed that before?

Erm...Because your a fcuking cnutyarsed troll attempting to pass yourself off as a Liverpool fan.

[peasy23]

That, I agree, highlights the blame apportioned to the police etc.

Still does not change what may have happened if only ticket holding fans went to Hillsborough that day.

From the Health and Safety Executives submission to the Taylor enquiry.

."6.105 The HSE also found that had the central pens, 3 and 4, conformed to the Green Guide, their maximum capacities would have been 1,015 and 1,036 respectively. As they did not conform, their maximum safe capacities should have been 822 (pen 3) and 872 (pen 4). Yet the safety certificate allowed 1,200 (pen 3) and 1,000 (pen 4).

2.6.106 The HSE estimated that on the day of the disaster 1,576 people entered pen 3. This was approximately double the maximum safe capacity.

61 The HSE found no evidence that this was due to fans without tickets entering the ground. It calculated that the highest number of entrants, either through the turnstiles or Gate C, was 10,124, just 24 over the designated capacity of the Leppings Lane terrace."

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Erm...Because your a fcuking cnutyarsed troll attempting to pass yourself off as a Liverpool fan.

Yeah, you're right. My bad.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

I'm just watching the ITV documentary from the other night at the moment, and I just noticed for the first time that the police still had a cordon on the half way line to stop the Forest fans being attacked ( I guess) at 3.18pm. Why have I never noticed that before?

I vaguely remember reports at the time were that the cordon was initually put up to stop Forest fans getting to the Liverpool end, as they'd initially thought it was crowd trouble and the cops probably feared a full scale riot.

This brings up an interesting point ... has anyone ever told the story from the Forest fans point of view, ie seeing the thing unfold at the other end of the park?

[Itwiznaeme]

Some on here seem utterly desperate to blame Liverpool fans, despite all that has been revealed recently. Also what relevance does Heysel have to this thread? That's correct, absolutely none, but some still evoke it in a desperate attempt to smear the Liverpool fans, as if this is indicative of their behaviour, much like an attorney/solicitor/lawyer will bring up something from a witness' past and desperately try to make out that this is in fact what they are like all the time, and see see, look what an awful person they are, they once did something a while ago and so they must be an awful, awful individual. Heysel was the result of a small minority of Liverpool fans, yet this is being used to slur thousands.

So why are some of you so utterly depserate to make out what bad people the Liverpool fans and how they are to blame? And yes, I know none of you have said that they are entirely to blame, but your pathetic, scrambling desperation to make out that they are to blame for a part of it is saddening and shows that you are utter wankers.

Now what you need to do is quote single passages whilst ignoring others. You can also post numerous smiley face varieties when quoting the post, or perhaps one of several GIFs you lot use, or maybe a photo with something like 'Why so mad' or some such 12 year old internet bollocks. Or you can use the classic 'verge of tears, 'seething' etc type responses. And don't post one in 'jest' now either.

^^^ Sobbing uncontrollably

To all genuinely decent football fans who happen to read this thread (no matter what club you support or where you are from), don't make the mistake of judging Scotland or its people upon the posts of this mentally retarded cnut of a Dundee fan 'Jupe1407' who lives in Forfar in Angus or any of his friends posting similar comments.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Itwiznaeme

[Benjamin_Nevis]

To all genuinely decent football fans who happen to read this thread (no matter what club you support or where you are from), don't make the mistake of judging Scotland or its people upon the posts of this mentally retarded cnut - 'Dundee fan Jupe1407' or any of his friends posting similar comments.

This thread's going incredibly badly for you.

Firstly, the biggest Liverpool fan on the thread tells you to shove your pathetic scramble for relevance with the flag pic, now you appear to be having a spittle-flecked meltdown over me for some reason. Are you trolling or just a genuine simpleton?

[Musketeer Gripweed]

I vaguely remember reports at the time were that the cordon was initually put up to stop Forest fans getting to the Liverpool end, as they'd initially thought it was crowd trouble and the cops probably feared a full scale riot.

This brings up an interesting point ... has anyone ever told the story from the Forest fans point of view, ie seeing the thing unfold at the other end of the park?

But by 3.18pm, why were at least 200 cops doing f**k all on the half line when fans were dying? By that time they knew what was happening.

A Forest Fan's Account

Hillsborough's tragic events touched all football fans, who rightly acknowledge - 'that could've been us'. Here, a Nottingham Forest fan tells us what it was like, looking on, from the other end of the ground. This picture shows the view from there, before kick off. Already the crowd can be seen crammed in behind the goal in pens 3 and 4, whilst the pens on either side are virtually empty:

As a long standing Nottingham Forest fan of over 40 years and who, despite emigrating to Vancouver, Canada in 1975, has managed to get back to attend all of Forest's major triumphs in the eighties and early nineties - the Hillsborough Disater will long remain as the most poignant of memories.

In March of 1989 both parents passed away and I was forced to return to England for a period of 6 weeks to tie up the loose ends. During this time my eldest son (who was 21 at the time) had also arrived in England during the course of a round-the-world trip. We had secured tickets to the semi final and it was to be a first chance for us both to attend a big game together - he having inherited my passion for the Reds (of Nottingham).

We rented a car and drove up the M1 from Nottingham and arrived in time for a good English pub lunch about a mile from the ground and having parked,walked the last mile to the stadium. As I remember it, it was a beautiful warm sunny day and despite the usual rivalry between opposing sets of fans - the atmosphere was typical of a major cup tie and everyone was intent on enjoying "the big day out".

We hung around outside the main entrance for a while and soaked in the atmosphere before entering the stands behind the goal at the opposite end of the ground from Leppings Lane about 45 minutes before kick off. This of course was the Forest end and although the central section was fairly crowded we managed to find a reasonably clear space midway down and to the side - as my son was concerned about it getting too claustrophobic.

My first recollection of something being wrong at the Liverpool end, was the site of someone being hauled up from the terraces from the balcony of the second tier grandstand. Then we started to notice the police move in behind the goal and the first thought was that "trouble" was being caused by the "hooligan element". This thought also seems to have occurred to the mass of Forest fans who started the usual harangue and taunts about the opposing supporters virtues - that is sickening feature at most games these days, and a lot of name calling and abuse was being hurled about. It was obviously hard to tell exactly what was going on but as soon as the teams came out, the focus changed as everybody stepped up into high gear with that nervous apprehension that precedes the kick-off of a big game.

I distinctly remember feeling that things weren't right somehow and remarked to my son about it, who who then pointed out people coming on to the pitch. By this time the game had started and it was apparent that the players and referee did not know what was happening - particularly as Liverpool came out with a storming attack on the Forest goal - nearest to us. By this time more and more activity behind the Lepping Lane goal was happening to the point where we realised the game would have to be stopped but it was still difficult not to think this was caused by hooliganism.

Rumours had started to sweep around the Forest end and some belligerent idiot next to us started yelling abuse about there being fans with no tickets breaking into the ground. This gathered momentum for a few minutes and I remember where a sole figure wearing a Liverpool scarf ran the full length of the pitch, rapidly followed by a horde of others, toward the Forest end.

My immediate thought was that a riot was about to break out and my son and I moved further to the left so we would have a clear way to the exit at the back of the stand. After gesticulating wildly at the Forest supporters who, in their defence, were ignorant of what had truly happened, these 'pitch invaders' started breaking down the advertising hoardings along the touchlines.

It was then I realised what was happening as they ran full tilt in pairs back to the Liverpool end with makeshift stretchers. It suddenly went really quiet as it dawned on every one that a serious situation was developing - and it pretty well stayed that way for the next half hour or so.

What I found appalling was that no information came out over the loudspeaker system for what seemed ages. I remember hearing fire engine sirens and ambulances wailing for at least ten minutes before we saw their appearance. One ambulance came on and we could see people being carried on the makeshift stretchers as well as people helping each other to get away from the crowd behind the goal.

When Kenny Dlaglish came on to announce that "we have a serious situation..." everyone was still thinking (or perhaps hoping) the game would re-start. Eventually it was announced that he game would be abandoned and would everybody leave quietly.

I remember that rather then feeling disappointed, I was relieved that we had not been exposed to any trouble or violence and we headed back to the car. As soon as we turned on the radio it was a shock to learn they were reporting several deaths.

By the time we hit the motorway this was now being talked of as being as many as 50 dead. On arrival back in Nottingham some 40 minutes later, we were greeted by my father-in-law who had been anxiously waiting in the driveway looking for us.

He had been watching all the events unfold on television and was obviously concerned by our safety. Word had also spread to Canada by this time and I remember immediately calling home to Vancouver to reassure my wife that we were safe.

Early the next morning I drove to Heathrow, picked up every copy of the Sunday newspapers and spent the entire 10 hour flight back to Vancouver reading about the dreadful events I had just witnessed.

To say the least, I was thankful that my son and I had tickets at the opposite end, and my heart went out to any parent who had lost a son or daughter-it could easily have been us.

I recount all of this as first a parent who bleeds for those who lost loved ones, and second as a lover of the beautiful game who hopes that the lessons learned from this disaster will never be forgotten.

Justice for the families has not been done - nor seen to be done, and while maybe some steps will be taken to remedy this by today's government announcements - there is no excuse for the past 8 years of cover-ups, inaction, and ineptitudes. Lastly as a Forest fan, the memories of our epic cup battles with Liverpool will forever be tainted by the events of that day.

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/forest.shtm

[Itwiznaeme]

Are you trolling or just a genuine simpleton?

Oh i think its fairly easy to work out who the trolls are on this thread...if you think that others reading through the thread cannot see what i see you must be even more of a simpleton than i thought you were upon reading your posts.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

A Forest Fan's Account

Hillsborough's tragic events touched all football fans, who rightly acknowledge - 'that could've been us'. Here, a Nottingham Forest fan tells us what it was like, looking on, from the other end of the ground. This picture shows the view from there, before kick off. Already the crowd can be seen crammed in behind the goal in pens 3 and 4, whilst the pens on either side are virtually empty:

As a long standing Nottingham Forest fan of over 40 years and who, despite emigrating to Vancouver, Canada in 1975, has managed to get back to attend all of Forest's major triumphs in the eighties and early nineties - the Hillsborough Disater will long remain as the most poignant of memories.

In March of 1989 both parents passed away and I was forced to return to England for a period of 6 weeks to tie up the loose ends. During this time my eldest son (who was 21 at the time) had also arrived in England during the course of a round-the-world trip. We had secured tickets to the semi final and it was to be a first chance for us both to attend a big game together - he having inherited my passion for the Reds (of Nottingham).

We rented a car and drove up the M1 from Nottingham and arrived in time for a good English pub lunch about a mile from the ground and having parked,walked the last mile to the stadium. As I remember it, it was a beautiful warm sunny day and despite the usual rivalry between opposing sets of fans - the atmosphere was typical of a major cup tie and everyone was intent on enjoying "the big day out".

We hung around outside the main entrance for a while and soaked in the atmosphere before entering the stands behind the goal at the opposite end of the ground from Leppings Lane about 45 minutes before kick off. This of course was the Forest end and although the central section was fairly crowded we managed to find a reasonably clear space midway down and to the side - as my son was concerned about it getting too claustrophobic.

My first recollection of something being wrong at the Liverpool end, was the site of someone being hauled up from the terraces from the balcony of the second tier grandstand. Then we started to notice the police move in behind the goal and the first thought was that "trouble" was being caused by the "hooligan element". This thought also seems to have occurred to the mass of Forest fans who started the usual harangue and taunts about the opposing supporters virtues - that is sickening feature at most games these days, and a lot of name calling and abuse was being hurled about. It was obviously hard to tell exactly what was going on but as soon as the teams came out, the focus changed as everybody stepped up into high gear with that nervous apprehension that precedes the kick-off of a big game.

I distinctly remember feeling that things weren't right somehow and remarked to my son about it, who who then pointed out people coming on to the pitch. By this time the game had started and it was apparent that the players and referee did not know what was happening - particularly as Liverpool came out with a storming attack on the Forest goal - nearest to us. By this time more and more activity behind the Lepping Lane goal was happening to the point where we realised the game would have to be stopped but it was still difficult not to think this was caused by hooliganism.

Rumours had started to sweep around the Forest end and some belligerent idiot next to us started yelling abuse about there being fans with no tickets breaking into the ground. This gathered momentum for a few minutes and I remember where a sole figure wearing a Liverpool scarf ran the full length of the pitch, rapidly followed by a horde of others, toward the Forest end.

My immediate thought was that a riot was about to break out and my son and I moved further to the left so we would have a clear way to the exit at the back of the stand. After gesticulating wildly at the Forest supporters who, in their defence, were ignorant of what had truly happened, these 'pitch invaders' started breaking down the advertising hoardings along the touchlines.

It was then I realised what was happening as they ran full tilt in pairs back to the Liverpool end with makeshift stretchers. It suddenly went really quiet as it dawned on every one that a serious situation was developing - and it pretty well stayed that way for the next half hour or so.

What I found appalling was that no information came out over the loudspeaker system for what seemed ages. I remember hearing fire engine sirens and ambulances wailing for at least ten minutes before we saw their appearance. One ambulance came on and we could see people being carried on the makeshift stretchers as well as people helping each other to get away from the crowd behind the goal.

When Kenny Dlaglish came on to announce that "we have a serious situation..." everyone was still thinking (or perhaps hoping) the game would re-start. Eventually it was announced that he game would be abandoned and would everybody leave quietly.

I remember that rather then feeling disappointed, I was relieved that we had not been exposed to any trouble or violence and we headed back to the car. As soon as we turned on the radio it was a shock to learn they were reporting several deaths.

By the time we hit the motorway this was now being talked of as being as many as 50 dead. On arrival back in Nottingham some 40 minutes later, we were greeted by my father-in-law who had been anxiously waiting in the driveway looking for us.

He had been watching all the events unfold on television and was obviously concerned by our safety. Word had also spread to Canada by this time and I remember immediately calling home to Vancouver to reassure my wife that we were safe.

Early the next morning I drove to Heathrow, picked up every copy of the Sunday newspapers and spent the entire 10 hour flight back to Vancouver reading about the dreadful events I had just witnessed.

To say the least, I was thankful that my son and I had tickets at the opposite end, and my heart went out to any parent who had lost a son or daughter-it could easily have been us.

I recount all of this as first a parent who bleeds for those who lost loved ones, and second as a lover of the beautiful game who hopes that the lessons learned from this disaster will never be forgotten.

Justice for the families has not been done - nor seen to be done, and while maybe some steps will be taken to remedy this by today's government announcements - there is no excuse for the past 8 years of cover-ups, inaction, and ineptitudes. Lastly as a Forest fan, the memories of our epic cup battles with Liverpool will forever be tainted by the events of that day.

http://www.contrast....ory/forest.shtm

Cheers for that. Pretty interesting stuff. I remember seeing news reports of the whole thing later on that evening. I think i'd been at a Dundee v Hearts game that day. Something was announced on the the tannoy about it being delayed due to crowd trouble, with the full story emerging by the time i got home.

But by 3.18pm, why were at least 200 cops doing f**k all on the half line when fans were dying? By that time they knew what was happening.

I'm going to hazard a guess that Duckenfield had them deployed there because he was probably still more worried about a riot on his watch than about doing something to help the dead/dying.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Cheers for that. Pretty interesting stuff. I remember seeing news reports of the whole thing later on that evening. I think i'd been at a Dundee v Hearts game that day. Something was announced on the the tannoy about it being delayed due to crowd trouble, with the full story emerging by the time i got home.

That was the first public lie on the day, by 3.10pm Graham Kelly (Chairman on the FA at the time) had already informed the media that drunk Liverpool fans had smashed down the exit gate and that was what was being repeated on the radio. Obviously that information had to be relayed to him by Duckenfield. By that point, there was no turning back. The lies had to be backed up by everyone involved to protect the police.

You think that thick w****r still thinks I am trolling?

[Benjamin_Nevis]

That was the first public lie on the day, by 3.10pm Graham Kelly (Chairman on the FA at the time) had already informed the media that drunk Liverpool fans had smashed down the exit gate and that was what was being repeated on the radio. Obviously that information had to be relayed to him by Duckenfield. By that point, there was no turning back. The lies had to be backed up by everyone involved to protect the police.

You think that thick w****r still thinks I am trolling?

Probably. I was going to suggest he checks any EPL/Liverpool match thread, but it's more fun watching him humiliate himself. I think you offended him be failing to show the appropriate gratitude for his wee flag upload

I'd forgotten about Graham Kelly actually until you mentioned it there. Duckenfield however receives the lion's share of the blame for all this. These appear to be the Police's main players re Hillsborough. Two of them are dead, one was nothing more than a mouthpiece/lackey, which really only leaves 75 year old Duckenfield to face the music from the Police side of things. The chances are that any enquiry will take ages, then be followed (presumably) by a court case. He'll have croaked before anything happens unfortunately.

Peter Wright, ex-chief constable South Yorkshire Police. Orchestrated police attempts to blame fans. Resignation initially rejected, but quit in 1990. Died 2011, aged 82.

David Duckenfield, ex-chief superintendent SYP. Lied to senior officers, blaming drunken, violent supporters. Retired, aged 55, in 1992 having avoided disciplinary action for neglect of duty. No verdict was given in manslaughter case brought by families in 2000.

Bernard Murray, ex-Superintendent SYP. Escaped disciplinary action following Duckenfield’s retirement. Acquitted of manslaughter charges brought by families in 2000. Died in 2006.

Paul Middup, ex-SYP Police Federation Secretary. Was part of the briefing process to White’s News agency in Sheffield, wrongly blaming supporters for the tragedy. Clearly felt he was acting on the authority of the Chief Constable.

[Radford]

This brings up an interesting point ... has anyone ever told the story from the Forest fans point of view, ie seeing the thing unfold at the other end of the park?

Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of Forest fans who claim to have been there on the day and peddle the tabloid lies. Despite the Liverpool support being this huge collection of scum, these Forest fans all came to pass by the Leppings Lane end, when they would have entered Sheffield from the other side. Why would you go near the Leppings Lane end if the Liverpool fans were so bad? Yet so many of their accounts involve passing by that end and witnessing thousands of hooligans doing their worst. Why they want to go down this route I'm not sure but suspect it's because of their dislike for the club, the fans and the city. I suppose a lot of the top English sides from the eighties probably do carry a massive amount of resentment for Liverpool after Heysel and the subsquent ban from European competition but not sure that justifies what clearly appears to be lies that they come away with. Even the police stopped pushing some of the stuff that Forest fans still claim they witnessed.

Have read an account from a Forest fan who (obviously) had a police mate in the SYP and one of the dead bodies apparently had thirty wallets on it and they needed to contact all the owners to find out who the body was!

[Sweet Pete]

Dalglish is a lunatic, all of his comments about Heysel are desperate attempts to excuse the inexcusable.

A friend bought Ian Rush's autobiography for me a few years ago. His account of the Heysel Disaster is similarly wishy washy and attempts to blame fans of other clubs, taking particular time to describe that he had seen someone wearing an Arsenal top in the middle of a photo of the fighting on the terrace before the wall collapsed. He also makes mention elsewhere in the book of Liverpool having never had a hooliganism problem and that it was a scene only played out at other clubs.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Erm...Because your a fcuking cnutyarsed troll attempting to pass yourself off as a Liverpool fan.

Just to cheer you up. You'll Never Walk Alone has gone from No. 41 to No. 16 in the download chart since 9am today.

As a troll, of course I didn't help the cause, after Gerry decided to donate all the money back to the HJC.

[Dunning1874]

Erm...Because your a fcuking cnutyarsed troll attempting to pass yourself off as a Liverpool fan.

You're a complete fruitloop.

Cheers for that Forest fan's account on the previous page, interesting read.