Hillsborough debate

[Highland Dogma]

These second hand facts and hearsay have nothing to do with why people died at Hillsborough. It amazes me that despite cold, hard evidence being placed in front of people that the ticketless, drunk fans myth was propaganda designed to deflect criticism from the authorities, some folk still are pushing that line.

Shows the power of the media though and just why likes of news international need to be properly controlled. Not same thing but I worked in cinemas for sixteen years and controlling queues was an essential part of business and I was on shift in a multiplex when a crush began to happen. Couple of screens came out late resulting in two thousand people leaving as two thousand were trying to get in resulting in four thousand people in a space nowhere near big enough. None were drunk and all had tickets and frankly it was terrifying trying to get control of it. We got emergency exits open and no one was hurt but people were pushing through sheer panic not rational decision making. Having inexperienced senior officers in charge of officers who were trained only for violent disorder in a facility that wasn't safe made a disaster inevitable irrespective of whether fans were sober or not.

[HibeeJibee]

the bolting of the seats onto the terrace slashed the capacity but IIRC there is still only 7 turnstiles for the lower part of the leppings land end, yes the turnstiles themselves were replaced with modern ones and the capacity is 6.5k compared to 14k in 89 so the amount of fans entering the stand is less than half. still the same stand and fans entering the seated area in the lower stand still use that infamous tunnell

Well fair enough, and I'll take your word on the number of turnstiles, but it's been passed fit for 20yrs now under ever-increasing levels of safety criteria (and presumably faces more scrutiny than most other stands). As I said - it was deemed fit to host Euro 96 and infact having checked, Hillsborough was on England's list for WC 2018 and the stand would've stayed but undergone further alteration, including a 3rd tier and new roof.

I'd admit from a symbolic point of view, demolishing it may be desirable, but the most important thing is if it's safe.

Edited September 13, 2012 by HibeeJibee

[roverthemoon]

people were pushing through sheer panic not rational decision making.

Spot on. As an individual in a crowd like that you can't see what is going on around about you and panic can set in pretty quick. People coming in would have had no idea there was a crush at the front and would have just been trying to get into the ground to watch the game.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

I work with a woman who is from Sheffield and is a massive Wednesday fans and used to live round the corner from the ground. She was telling me she remembers quite vividly Liverpool fans absolutely steaming both before and after the game was abandoned. To quote her ' It was like when the Old Firm come up here. Pissing in folks front gardens and generally being wankers'.

So a major incident had just occured round the corner from her house and she was sitting looking at fans pishing in gardens. You sure she didn't work for SYP at the time?

[Highland Dogma]

Spot on. As an individual in a crowd like that you can't see what is going on around about you and panic can set in pretty quick. People coming in would have had no idea there was a crush at the front and would have just been trying to get into the ground to watch the game.

People also got disorientated through panic and were pushing without knowing what direction to push in. Controversial as this may seem I have a certain sympathy for any junior officers who would have been trying to deal with something that they had no training for....though the subsequent cover up tempers this.

[magee84]

I remember a huge massive cue and congestion building up behind the old jungle at CP in 1991 i think, cant remember the date exactly but it was the game against Rangers where Scott Nisbet got sent off.

Despite the carnage at Hillsborough the police that day opened a big gate to ease congestion and hundreds, me included went through without having our tickets checked, i was about 15 at the time and recall thinking i wonder how many are just steaming in with no tickets. The jungle was a much larger area than the Leppings Lane @ Hillsborougj and wasnt fenced off into pens but it still had a fence down the front and is another example of how this could have happened to any of us around that era.

[thisal]

I think you are bang on the money here. Great post.

I agree to an extent. I don't think drunkenness is a factor at all, whether it was true or not. In fact it should really be the Liverpool fans trying to peddle the drunk fans line, as it might give some reason to explain why theose at the back behaved so badly.

The people at the back behaved no differently to commuters getting on a busy bus or train, The Police opened the gates to send them in. The Police had CCTV and radios. The supporters couldn't see what was ahead. I would imagine if I was there at that time I would be thinking it was just the usual bottleneck of people entering at not moving further down the terrace as happened at every big match I was at in that era.

[H_B]

and would have just been trying to get into the ground to watch the game.

This comes back to points made previously on the thread.

If people in front of you in any crowd aren't moving, or aren't moving quickly, that's for a reason. Impatient unthinking arseholes at the back deciding they don't want to wait exacerbate these problems and create panic.

[thisal]

I remember a huge massive cue and congestion building up behind the old jungle at CP in 1991 i think, cant remember the date exactly but it was the game against Rangers where Scott Nisbet got sent off.

Despite the carnage at Hillsborough the police that day opened a big gate to ease congestion and hundreds, me included went through without having our tickets checked, i was about 15 at the time and recall thinking i wonder how many are just steaming in with no tickets. The jungle was a much larger area than the Leppings Lane @ Hillsborougj and wasnt fenced off into pens but it still had a fence down the front and is another example of how this could have happened to any of us around that era.

I was at the 1976 cup final at Hampden. It was meant to be all ticket. But the East terrace hadn't sold out. So it was made pay at the gate. It turned out to be a sunny day. So the combination of a big crowd and cash turnstyles meant there was a still a massive crowd outside at kickoff. We got in just before kick off and it was already mobbed so we were at the top of the terrace and could see the turnstyles. Rangers scored in the first minute and the people outside were getting restless so someone opened a gate and thousands of people rushed in up the stairs I'm 6'3 and my feet were lifted off the ground and when it settled the 4 of us were 30 feet apart. Despite that only being 5 years after Ibrox it didn't even rate a mention. No one saw it as unusual.

[H_B]

The people at the back behaved no differently to commuters getting on a busy bus or train,

I wouldn't disagree. I've seen shocking behaviour there too.

Going through to the festival the other week, given Scotrail's terrific decision to have a 3 carriage train on Scotland's busiest route, the train was jampacked when it stopped at Falkirk. There was no room. This didn't stop some clowns trying to barge their way on, as of course waiting 15 minutes for the next one was unthinkable.

I've seen old people and young kids barged aside leaving football matches, because impatient arseholes don't want to be delayed and seem to think their personal desire to leave quickly overrides the safety and wellbeing of others.

[Highland Dogma]

I remember a huge massive cue and congestion building up behind the old jungle at CP in 1991 i think, cant remember the date exactly but it was the game against Rangers where Scott Nisbet got sent off.

Despite the carnage at Hillsborough the police that day opened a big gate to ease congestion and hundreds, me included went through without having our tickets checked, i was about 15 at the time and recall thinking i wonder how many are just steaming in with no tickets. The jungle was a much larger area than the Leppings Lane @ Hillsborougj and wasnt fenced off into pens but it still had a fence down the front and is another example of how this could have happened to any of us around that era.

We take crowd control for granted these days but its an extremely complex difficult task requiring highly trained experienced personnel. On the rans admin thread it was asked why newco didn't punt some of its hundred odd non playing staff when they are in sfl three and irrespective of tupe one answer is that many will be employed to ensure safe access to and from ground on match days.

[fueradejuego]

I agree to an extent. I don't think drunkenness is a factor at all, whether it was true or not. In fact it should really be the Liverpool fans trying to peddle the drunk fans line, as it might give some reason to explain why theose at the back behaved so badly.

The ticketless element is also a bit of a red herring, though again it could explain why some of those behaving so poorly did so (i.e. they wanted in quickly before their lack of a ticket could be established).

As you say though, neither of these things is parttcularly important and neither of them excuse the scumbaggery of some Liverpool fans.

The ticketless and drunken element has been addressed by Taylor and have rightfully been eliminated as you highlight.

Are there cited examples of the poor behaviour of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough recorded anywhere?

[ayrmad]

I wouldn't disagree. I've seen shocking behaviour there too.

Going through to the festival the other week, given Scotrail's terrific decision to have a 3 carriage train on Scotland's busiest route, the train was jampacked when it stopped at Falkirk. There was no room. This didn't stop some clowns trying to barge their way on, as of course waiting 15 minutes for the next one was unthinkable.

I've seen old people and young kids barged aside leaving football matches, because impatient arseholes don't want to be delayed and seem to think their personal desire to leave quickly overrides the safety and wellbeing of others.

Don't know how many times I never got a seat on that fcuking train route, happened almost everytime I used that train, the fcukers don't even get embarrassed that you're paying the same as someone getting a nice comfy seat

Edited September 13, 2012 by ayrmad

[Highland Dogma]

I wouldn't disagree. I've seen shocking behaviour there too.

Going through to the festival the other week, given Scotrail's terrific decision to have a 3 carriage train on Scotland's busiest route, the train was jampacked when it stopped at Falkirk. There was no room. This didn't stop some clowns trying to barge their way on, as of course waiting 15 minutes for the next one was unthinkable.

I've seen old people and young kids barged aside leaving football matches, because impatient arseholes don't want to be delayed and seem to think their personal desire to leave quickly overrides the safety and wellbeing of others.

In ninety eight I got a virgin train from Chesterfield to Edinburgh for hogmanay that was same. There were seventeen people squeezed into the gap between carriages and the guard was still trying g to force people on board. It one guy to threaten him before he would stop.

[ayrmad]

In ninety eight I got a virgin train from Chesterfield to Edinburgh for hogmanay that was same. There were seventeen people squeezed into the gap between carriages and the guard was still trying g to force people on board. It one guy to threaten him before he would stop.

I regularly used to sit in the wee luggage dookit to avoid swaying around like a dafty.

[craigkillie]

Going through to the festival the other week, given Scotrail's terrific decision to have a 3 carriage train on Scotland's busiest route, the train was jampacked when it stopped at Falkirk. There was no room. This didn't stop some clowns trying to barge their way on, as of course waiting 15 minutes for the next one was unthinkable.

In fairness, it's often the case on trains and the subway that there is space available down the aisles, but that for some reason people don't want to use it. I've very rarely been on a train which has actually been totally full, even when Scotrail's incompetence leads to there being 3 carriages on busy routes.

[T_S_A_R]

The ticketless and drunken element has been addressed by Taylor and have rightfully been eliminated as you highlight.

Are there cited examples of the poor behaviour of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough recorded anywhere?

i'm sure i've seen video of crushing outside the ground. that is poor behaviour by the liverpool fans.

the bottom line is that liverpool fans were killed by crushing. the force of the crush was created by liverpool fans.

blaming the police and the fa for the deaths is the equivalent of blaming us airport security and the cia for 9//11.

[welshbairn]

i'm sure i've seen video of crushing outside the ground. that is poor behaviour by the liverpool fans.

the bottom line is that liverpool fans were killed by crushing. the force of the crush was created by liverpool fans.

blaming the police and the fa for the deaths is the equivalent of blaming us airport security and the cia for 9//11.

Only if the hijackers had been escorted into the pilot seats by airport security and the CIA had set the autopilot for the twin towers. Mind you, some folk probably think that's what happened.

[fueradejuego]

i'm sure i've seen video of crushing outside the ground. that is poor behaviour by the liverpool fans.

the bottom line is that liverpool fans were killed by crushing. the force of the crush was created by liverpool fans.

blaming the police and the fa for the deaths is the equivalent of blaming us airport security and the cia for 9//11.

Crushing outside the ground was a consequence of there being 23 turnstiles for 24,000 fans.

Too many fans, not enough turnstiles and a very cramped entrance area.

Externally, the situation was the result of a complete failure in management.

What I was interested in was what occurred in the tunnel area leading to the pens etc.

[T_S_A_R]

Crushing outside the ground was a consequence of there being 23 turnstiles for 24,000 fans.

Too many fans, not enough turnstiles and a very cramped entrance area.

what does that mean?

there was obviously enough space outside the ground to accommodate a massive amount of people, think about the area of the surrounding streets compared to the area of the terrace.