Hillsborough debate

[Desert Nomad]

Everton released a wee statement as well. I suppose they are neighbours though.

[Ira Gaines]

I see nothing wrong with the Celtic statement btw. And there's no way the fans can completely be free of blame. Most goes to those fucked today, but FFS

[resk]

The Sellick statement is a minter. Aside from that, it's a great day for Liverpool, fitba fans generally, and most importantly the families.

[djchapsticks]

Everton released a wee statement as well. I suppose they are neighbours though.

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Many Everton fans will have lost friends, colleagues and family members that day.

The Celtic statement is a complete fucking riddy though and reeks of 'look at us, look at us, pllllleeeeeeaaaasssse!!!'

[dundeefc1783]

Another major failing that was mentioned today was that there were no cordons well in advance of the turnstiles.

At previous big games at that ground due to the bottleneck entrance to the Leppings Lane end that police put in place cordons to check tickets to slow fans down prevent the build up at the turnstiles.

[jacobsladder]

Has the Sun and Kelvin McKenzie made any comment yet ??????

[MarkoRaj]

Having read a lot about it, I was under the impression that the fans weren't to blame in the slightest. Wasn't it that they gate without regulating it which led to people all heading down the same tunnel? Genuinely didn't know there were still folk blaming the fans

[HoBNob]

Please remember the size of the Liverpool support compated to Sheffield Weds on usual match days.

Indeed, Liverppol asked prior to the match to change end given the size of their support compared to Forest's.

The police refused that request.

Edit- beat me to it Archie

Why would it matter if they had a larger support? They would have been given the amount of tickets for that stand. Surely if they were wanting the ends changed they were aware of the chance of ticketless fans?

Find it mental that apparently all the fans were sober, it was a semi-final, no chance that every fan was sober.

[Paco]

Any danger at all of Kelvin MacKenzie being charged with slander, lies, being sub-human scum, anything at all?

 

I dislike Liverpool as much as the next man but even if the fans were remotely to blame the entire situation was caused by the policing on the day. That in itself is bad enough, but the state-sponsored cover-up and smear campaign at the back of it is absolutely sickening.

 

I'd far rather see the CPS pursuing those complicit in the cover-up than the police on the day, who while incompetent didn't exactly set out to kill anyone. Those higher up in South Yorkshire police, the government and the media? They knew exactly what they were doing.

[Newbornbairn]

Anybody going to be held to account for holding a sellout game at a stadium that didn't have a safety certificate?

[TheScarf]

Anybody going to be held to account for holding a sellout game at a stadium that didn't have a safety certificate?

 

Presumably now the FA and SWFC will very much be in the spotlight with regards to legal proceedings.

[Savage Henry]

Anyone hear Adrian Durham's speech on talk sport at 4pm? Superb. Had a lump in my throat listening to it. Delighted for the families and inspirational for anyone fighting for the truth.

Nobody believes that. Poor effort. 0/10.

[GAD]

Genuinely didn't know there were still folk blaming the fans

Only absolute fucking morons to be fair.

[Theo Snelders]

Why would it matter if they had a larger support? They would have been given the amount of tickets for that stand. Surely if they were wanting the ends changed they were aware of the chance of ticketless fans?

Find it mental that apparently all the fans were sober, it was a semi-final, no chance that every fan was sober.

 

The question was asked further above why this would be different from any other matchday at Hillsborough.

There was no cordons/little cowd control this time,with a very large support-it can be imagined how bad this was and why it was different was my point.

Liverpool asked to change ends as there had been some crushing and discomfort the previous year.

I believe it's on record that one of the young lads who died turned to his dad and commented "Oh no, not that ground again" when they heard the 1989 semi was at Hillsborough. There is no evidence for ticketless fans.

 

On alcohol-you'll be aware that blood alcohol levels were taken from all those who died-including a ten year old-none had been drinking to excess. Pretty sure there are no reports of drunken behaviour in the crowd, but I might be corrected on that.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

As someone who is much too young to have experienced pre-Taylor report football grounds, I always found this article on a Newcastle website I frequent illuminating. It seems clear that no-one gave a crap about fan safety.

 

 

We often found ourselves in various perilous situations at different grounds (including St. James' Park) up and down the country where we were always one slip, one mounted police charge, one gate opening away from disaster.

 

A few years before the disaster I was in the central pen at the Leppings Lane End, packed in so tightly that breathing became an effort, my feet were off the floor and some of us were sensing the danger. Thankfully, we were near enough to the tunnel to fight our way out and make our way, despite the non-existent signage, into the side pens which were virtually empty. It had been a death-trap for years.

 

My colleague was at the White Hart Lane incident, some years later, where it was nothing short of a miracle that no-one lost their lives when in 1987 United fans were almost the victim of callous policing by the Met. The Park Lane end containing the travelling support was allowed to become dangerously overcrowded while the adjacent paddocks remained closed and unused. The first few fans to scale the fences were arrested but gradually more joined in and fought with stewards to open gates on to the pitch. And in an eerie foretaste of the Hillsborough tragedy, seated fans above pulled some of those below to safety and disaster was averted.

The police's reaction was to stretch a line of officers in front of the away section which blotted out any view of the match and after the final whistle a vain attempt was made to hold the away fans in their pen.

 

A midweek game at Maine Road saw a massive crush on the stairs leading down from the away terrace on the Kippax and at one point I was jammed up against the railings staring at a 50ft drop with nowhere to go. A piece of fatigued metal or crumbling concrete would have seen dozens of us fall to our deaths.

Just a year after Hillsborough, our game in Sheffield at Bramall Lane had seen an almighty crush at the end of the match where once again the South Yorkshire police had lost control. Had they learned nothing? I remember writing to The Mag about it at the time.

 

But things weren't much better at St. James'. Many of the sold out games saw crowds way in excess of the official attendance figures and while some areas of the Gallowgate were packed, the "Scoreboard" section would be dangerously crammed. Kenny Wharton's testimonial game being a surprising case in point.

 

The "them and us" attitude of the police at the time meant that it never entered their heads that on that awful day, that they were watching a disaster unfold. They presumed it was a pitch invasion and disorder.

[heedthebaa]

I'm presuming this verdict will open the door for compensation ??

[HTG]

I've not yet read my way through this thread but some folk on page 1 are now looking like proper c***s.

[MarkoRaj]

I've not yet read my way through this thread but some folk on page 1 are now looking like proper c***s.

Tbf they already did

[dundeefc1783]

You should really have put that in size 28 font, because god knows the majority of Liverpool "fans" won't read it. I genuinely think some Liverpool fans expect the government to turn around and say "it's a fair cop, it was all the fault of the police and nothing whatsoever to do with drunken troublemakers. No sir." What happens if the enquiry or whatever it is happens know ends up saying "actually, we still think the police were within their rights to act the way they did" or even "inebriated Liverpool fans made the problem even greater?" Is that the right kind of truth, or is the truth only what people want to hear?

They expected the government to do that because it was the truth and it has now been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that this has f**k all to do with so called drunken troublemakers and everything to do with the authorities. Edited April 26, 2016 by dundeefc1783

[Savage Henry]

They expected the government to do that because it was the truth and it has now been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that this has f**k all to do with so called drunken troublemakers and everything to do with the authorities.

 

Uh huh.  Except it hasn't, has it?  The blame has been rightly been placed on the authorities - criminal incompetence at best - and the fans' actions ignored.  This is politics. Again, why the false dichotomy between the authorities and the fans?  Because the authorities were in control of the situation.  That is where the blame should lie.  Doesn't at all mean it had "f**k all" to do with the fans.  Most people are capable of discerning the difference.