The DA Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 4 minutes ago, pozbaird said: I'm guessing here, but clearly, with their initial statements, Celtic have put their head above the parapet first. My guess would be that if Lawell and Celtic are serious about retrospective action, then Lawell will quietly sound out if there's any appetite for action in other boardrooms - he'll quickly realise there's no appetite from anyone to do anything, and absolutely nothing will be done. I think Lawell and Celtic know this anyway - they're merely sitting on moral high ground right now and delighting in noising up the deadco mob. Celtic won't throw their weight behind a real effort to have honours stripped or asterisks inserted - they're just making lots of noise. Maybe some talking heads like Thompson on Twitter will make further 'hammer the cheats' statements, but I don't think any of us have seen a rug as big as the one 'retrospective honour stripping' is about to be swept under. The fans would need to threaten to walk away again. Unfortunately, most of the season tickets that are going to be sold have probably been sold by now, so there's less of a threat than in 2012. I think this is unlikely since the SC judgment, while significant, has less public impact than the club going into liquidation and their spawn looking to get into the league. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWilliamson Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Nothing like reading the moon howlers on here to cheer you up -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Was moon howlers the agreed line of attack last night when the PMs went out? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 As a matter of actually reading both sides I would urge people to read this bloghttps://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/illegal-use-of-ebts-other-issues/ This is the most pressing paragraph No one is saying (or has said to the best of my knowledge) that Rangers are facing criminal charges. However, the First Tier Tribunal (Tax) on whose findings we are all waiting, will determine the legality of Rangers tax strategy. If the FTT(T) finds against Rangers, it will have deemed that the strategy used by Rangers for over a decade was indeed illegal. I struggle to believe that any hack is so stupid as to not understand this issue. One wonders if recent contact with Sir David Murray has dulled the investigative zeal of the five hand-picked journalists who were recently granted an audience. I could be wrong. Maybe they were just “duped”? Does this word mean “to have been misled voluntarily?” The outcome was the FTT ruled the EBT scheme was legal. The UTT upheld that decision. HMRC went back to court and challenged not the legality of EBTs but if they eliminated a tax burden at all. On this point HMRC won. The outcome is EBTs are legal, they just don't avoid tax.nobody has ever said that EBTs were illegal, ever, at all. The question was always whether the payments were income from employment in the hands of the players. The ftt was not ruling on the legality or otherwise. They were deciding, wrongly as it turns out, on the tax point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 JIm?, what is actually your point here? Finally as we all know and hoped for, Rangers FC PLC have been found guilty of abusing a legal pension scheme with benefits to bribe players to play for them they otherwise couldn't have afforded, and it almost looks like you are defending their crime by saying it's not a sham??? It has been found out to be a sham hasn't it? The FTT & the UTT outcomes do not even matter one jot now other than they were previously contested outcomes. The loans were found to be actual bona fide loans as a fact by the FTT. They were not a sham. What the court of session found was that the funds were put at the disposal of employees as a result of their employment, not that they weren't loans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Sorry but this is utter dross. No-one is arguing that the EBT schemes were not legal. Ranger's use of them was not and yet LNS proceeded on the basis that Rangers used the schemes legally. They clearly did not. nope.Rangers use of the EBT was entirely legal and above board. This is not and has not been in doubt.The way they reported their PAYE obligations was the problem.Had they done what they did but paid the tax and NI, there would be no issue. Ergo the EBT was not the problem, the tax return was. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DA Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Just now, coprolite said: nope. Rangers use of the EBT was entirely legal and above board. This is not and has not been in doubt. The way they reported their PAYE obligations was the problem. Had they done what they did but paid the tax and NI, there would be no issue. Ergo the EBT was not the problem, the tax return was. As I understand it, the EBTs were legal but Rangers'use of side-letters committing them to paying what were supposed to be discretionary, non-contractual loans broke the footballing authority's rules. Not illegal but unlawful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Just now, coprolite said: nope. Rangers use of the EBT was entirely legal and above board. This is not and has not been in doubt. The way they reported their PAYE obligations was the problem. Had they done what they did but paid the tax and NI, there would be no issue. Ergo the EBT was not the problem, the tax return was. In your own words - nope. Rangers used a mechanism that was sold to them on the basis that in utilising EBTs they could circumvent the requirement to pay PAYE. It was the very essence of why they used it and therefore the EBT was entirely the problem. A bit like a speeding driver causing a crash but pointing out that it could have been so much worse if the car hadn't had an MOT. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 I thought that LNS had found that the players were incorrectly registered in the first place, no?they got off because of "no sporting advantage".I can't see why the decision would change because of the tax treatment which is only a bit relevant.The decision was obviously a farce but no one should get their hopes up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyWellFan Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 It still amazes me how hard done by these c***s feel.They got every helping hand going from the authorities in this country and they should be thankful that they are still watching football at Ibrox.They have not been adequately punished but there is zero chance of the authorities in this country doing so as they don't want to upset the violent and militaristic Rangers support.Title stripping is a pipe dream. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 1 hour ago, BobWilliamson said: Nothing like reading the moon howlers on here to cheer you up Happy his dead Club cheated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsr Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 25 minutes ago, MikeyWellFan said: It still amazes me how hard done by these c***s feel. They got every helping hand going from the authorities in this country and they should be thankful that they are still watching football at Ibrox. They see everything as a life and death struggle against the forces of Timothy and Popery. If something bad happens to Rangers, it's because "Them" are behind it. Not because Rangers did something stupid or illegal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomo Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 11 minutes ago, shull said: Happy his dead Club cheated. Of course he is, and given that they will go unpunished for it, why wouldn't he be? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 In your own words - nope. Rangers used a mechanism that was sold to them on the basis that in utilising EBTs they could circumvent the requirement to pay PAYE. It was the very essence of why they used it and therefore the EBT was entirely the problem. A bit like a speeding driver causing a crash but pointing out that it could have been so much worse if the car hadn't had an MOT. You are confusing their reason for using it with how they used it.I agree that there would be no real reason for using the trust the way they did absent the tax benefit but that doesn't mean the use was illegal.if i do up old cars and sell them legitemately on ebay but don't tell hmrc, it isn't using ebay to sell cars that is illegal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWilliamson Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 26 minutes ago, MikeyWellFan said: It still amazes me how hard done by these c***s feel. They got every helping hand going from the authorities in this country and they should be thankful that they are still watching football at Ibrox. They have not been adequately punished but there is zero chance of the authorities in this country doing so as they don't want to upset the violent and militaristic Rangers support. Title stripping is a pipe dream. Helping hand? Like when the SFA went against a UEFA directive and closed a transfer window early so we missed out on signing players. Like when the club were voted out the top flight? The other clubs benefited financially to the TV deal that was only in place if Rangers were involved. Rangers received next to nothing. Like withholding Rangers license to play so the club could play no pre season friendliest. I am glad my club were punished the way they were as we , the support, can look back and say we did it on our own. We asked for nothing and we got nothing. It is utterly laughable supporters of the other clubs think they influenced this in any way. The SPL clubs wanted Rangers in the second tier for their own self interest. Did the SPL fans want that? The SFL fans wanted a 16 team top division. Did they get that? The TV companies are the people who were pulling the strings. They made it absolutely crystal clear that Rangers , in whatever form, had to be included in the deal. At the end of the day the correct decision was reached. Other clubs that walked away from their debt were not punished in the same way which is shameful but I can live with that. I would hope in the future any club who runs up exorbitant debt then simply walks away from it receives the same punishment as Rangers but I doubt it very much -5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWilliamson Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 13 minutes ago, nsr said: They see everything as a life and death struggle against the forces of Timothy and Popery. If something bad happens to Rangers, it's because "Them" are behind it. Not because Rangers did something stupid or illegal. Oldco did something illegal? You should report them to the authorities then. I am pretty sure there have been no criminal charges brought against Oldco owners 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWilliamson Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 8 minutes ago, Jambomo said: Of course he is, and given that they will go unpunished for it, why wouldn't he be? Unpunished? I've had to visit Cowdenbeath Ffs!! -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Just now, coprolite said: You are confusing their reason for using it with how they used it. I agree that there would be no real reason for using the trust the way they did absent the tax benefit but that doesn't mean the use was illegal. if i do up old cars and sell them legitemately on ebay but don't tell hmrc, it isn't using ebay to sell cars that is illegal. How they used it was their reason for using it. Do you think that Rangers were looking to EBTs to allow them to make discretionary payments of because Paul Baxendale-Walker told them that they could avoid paying tax? The two things are not being confused and you can be sure that Rangers would not have used EBTs if they did not see any tax advantages. OT: If you have not registered as self-employed with HMRC then the process of selling cars on e-bay as a trade (regardless of your tax intentions) is illegal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Helping hand? Like when the SFA went against a UEFA directive and closed a transfer window early so we missed out on signing players. Like when the club were voted out the top flight? The other clubs benefited financially to the TV deal that was only in place if Rangers were involved. Rangers received next to nothing. Like withholding Rangers license to play so the club could play no pre season friendliest. I am glad my club were punished the way they were as we , the support, can look back and say we did it on our own. We asked for nothing and we got nothing. It is utterly laughable supporters of the other clubs think they influenced this in any way. The SPL clubs wanted Rangers in the second tier for their own self interest. Did the SPL fans want that? The SFL fans wanted a 16 team top division. Did they get that? The TV companies are the people who were pulling the strings. They made it absolutely crystal clear that Rangers , in whatever form, had to be included in the deal. At the end of the day the correct decision was reached. Other clubs that walked away from their debt were not punished in the same way which is shameful but I can live with that. I would hope in the future any club who runs up exorbitant debt then simply walks away from it receives the same punishment as Rangers but I doubt it very much salty salty tears.delicious 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 7 minutes ago, BobWilliamson said: the same punishment as Rangers What punishment was that then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.