Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[Ivo den Bieman]

It is interesting to see the laughable OF victim mentality so alive and well at Ibrox.

What is also astonishing is the utter lack of credible activity from fan's groups, who seem to have spent their time scrambling for relevance with the various dubious bidders for the club. In most administrations that I can think of- Plymouth, Dundee, Raith, Morton- a much smaller group of fans raised a small fortune and were instrumental in the preservation of their clubs in pretty dire circumstances. Still, it could be argued that the club's debts are so enormous that all the fan fundraisers in the world would have the same effect as throwing an eggcup of water on an inferno.

The Rangers fans approach seems to be to sit about shouting at everyone who crosses their field of vision, and do nothing, other than give a clown some money and hope that the likes of Sir Alan Sugar or a Russian oligarch comes along and makes it all go away, purely pout of the goodness of their hearts, with a wave of a diamond encrusted platinum wand.

with fans as deluded, inactive, and with such a profound and unjustified sense of entitlement, it's no wonder Rangers are this morning staring into the abyss. I can't see how liquidation can realistically be avoided, so the end game now becomes about how that happens, and how the establishment of a newco is handled by oputative new owners and the authorities.

The mewling and whining from the likes of that arsehole Topping and the St. Johnstone chairman are far from encouraging, it has to be said.

[mozam76]

Thought this was a bit of light relief

http://www.glencairn.co.uk/news/://www. glencairn.co.uk/news/david-weir-decanter-set- trophy/

To mark the moving on of their captain David Weir, Rangers commissioned Glencairn Crystal to supplier a premium decanter set and blue glass trophy. Both the decanter set and blue glass trophy where engraved with Rangers' crest and the signatures of his team mates.

Glencairn would like to wish David Weir all the best in his future.

Creditor list: Glencairn Crystal Studio Ltd – £354

What a brass neck these cnuts have

Have they paid for that brass? Or indeed, the Mr Sheen to keep it clean?

[Handsome_Devil]

To be fair to the Rangers fans, if I was one of them (perish the thought!) I wouldn't be chucking my hard earned into this debacle. You're as well throwing it down a drain, it will make absolutely no difference.

I agree that their attitude is remarkable though, how they can think anyone else is to blame for their situation or is giving them a hard time without justification is mind-boggling.

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

It is interesting to see the laughable OF victim mentality so alive and well at Ibrox.

What is also astonishing is the utter lack of credible activity from fan's groups, who seem to have spent their time scrambling for relevance with the various dubious bidders for the club. In most administrations that I can think of- Plymouth, Dundee, Raith, Morton- a much smaller group of fans raised a small fortune and were instrumental in the preservation of their clubs in pretty dire circumstances. Still, it could be argued that the club's debts are so enormous that all the fan fundraisers in the world would have the same effect as throwing an eggcup of water on an inferno.

The Rangers fans approach seems to be to sit about shouting at everyone who crosses their field of vision, and do nothing, other than give a clown some money and hope that the likes of Sir Alan Sugar or a Russian oligarch comes along and makes it all go away, purely pout of the goodness of their hearts, with a wave of a diamond encrusted platinum wand.

with fans as deluded, inactive, and with such a profound and unjustified sense of entitlement, it's no wonder Rangers are this morning staring into the abyss. I can't see how liquidation can realistically be avoided, so the end game now becomes about how that happens, and how the establishment of a newco is handled by oputative new owners and the authorities.

The mewling and whining from the likes of that arsehole Topping and the St. Johnstone chairman are far from encouraging, it has to be said.

This is a good point.

Using Clyde as an example, the idea that someone was going to save us was not really in anyone's mind, except the wholly unreralistic.

That meant we had to take control ourselves and raise the money. I believe something like £500k has been found over the past 7 years and we still have a club (in dire straits it has to be said), and therefore we have the possibility of recovering once the final £150k or so is paid off.

Mistakes were made along the way, but saving a football club tends to be a one-time project and therefore experience is limited.

The fact that Clyde are now owned by their fans means no one individual can leave us in an unholy mess gain - I think we were £1m -£1.5m in debt with little chance of reducing that.

The CVA helped us enormously and we can see a day when we will be debt free.

The downside of fan ownership is restricted competitiveness. However perhaps clubs like Rangers, Celtic and even Hearts should look to the concept that their days of being competitive outside Scotland have gone forever and focus on making the game here more attractive and competitive.

The chasing of Eurpean glory and shareholder value will kill one of these clubs - we are not far away as we speak, but I still don't get the sense that many lessons are being learnt.

The efforts of Rangers fans to provide funding and an alternative solution has been poor - but that's what happens when you think the world owes you a living.

[Granny Danger]

Which stance is that? I have completely lost track, I can't remember if what I read was in rangers media or on here, I can't remeber if what I watched & listened to was on rangers media bbc scotland, SSN or C4.

HMRC have a stated policy that they will not support a CVA where there is evidence of a serious intent to defraud the tax authorities. They have previously deemed EBT style instruments as one such possible example of this.

I take this to mean that if the HMRC win the 'big' tax case tribunal and it is deemed that the EBT were a tax evasion rather than a tax avoidance device then HMRC will not be inclined to support a CVA. The obvious reason being that it is better for the Treasury to lose some money and sending out a signal to potential future abusers of the system of the consequences of their actions.

Of course this raises other issues that have been alluded to here and elsewhere, namely if it was tax evasion and not avoidance will criminal charges follow.

[pozbaird]

I can't see how liquidation can realistically be avoided, so the end game now becomes about how that happens, and how the establishment of a newco is handled by oputative new owners and the authorities.

Please refer to the first post on this thread! The endgame was what interested me, and what I asked in the first post. When the dust settled, I wondered just what the SPL / SFA / other club chairmen would actually do. The politicians, the media keyboard jockeys, even us diddies who post on forums... we have all had our say, expressed our views, but at the end of the day, they don't count. I genuinely think the likes of Doncaster & Regan are caught between a rock and a hard place. I don't think they have a clue what to do - how could they really? They don't know the result of the BTC, they don't know if they're looking at a CVA, new owners, liquidation... I can easily imagine both Doncaster & Regan locking themselves in the toilet, sitting on the pan, putting their head in their hands and quietly rocking back and forth, while muttering 'NOOOOOOOO! Make it all go away....'

Poor chaps. Now, get off the lavvy and when things become clearer, start earning your big bucks - fcuking deal with them - the same way you'd deal with any club in the same circumstances.

[Handsome_Devil]

Of course this raises other issues that have been alluded to here and elsewhere, namely if it was tax evasion and not avoidance will criminal charges follow.

Think I read somewhere criminal charges for tax evasion in Scotland can only stick if there is evidence you knew what you were doing was evasion not avoidance and did it anyway. Even if Rangers fall onto the evasion side of the ruling, I doubt anyone could prove they intentionally evaded rather than avoided.

[HTG]

To be fair to the Rangers fans, if I was one of them (perish the thought!) I wouldn't be chucking my hard earned into this debacle. You're as well throwing it down a drain, it will make absolutely no difference.

I agree that their attitude is remarkable though, how they can think anyone else is to blame for their situation or is giving them a hard time without justification is mind-boggling.

I agree with this. The sums involved are too big for buckets. And there are still too many people who can't be trusted. The approach taken by H&D doesn't help. What is the point throwing cash at an insolvent club who have allegedly cut costs by a million a month but are still losing money. Sensible Rangers supporters know that this is a bag of shite. When this admin was announced it was obvious it would not conclude before the euro deadline. The big earners should have been hunted on day 1. Kids would have kept them in the top 6. Savings would have been far greater than the income they were trying to protect. It is a sham administration and no sensible person should go near it.

[Mark Connolly]

HMRC have a stated policy that they will not support a CVA where there is evidence of a serious intent to defraud the tax authorities. They have previously deemed EBT style instruments as one such possible example of this.

I take this to mean that if the HMRC win the 'big' tax case tribunal and it is deemed that the EBT were a tax evasion rather than a tax avoidance device then HMRC will not be inclined to support a CVA. The obvious reason being that it is better for the Treasury to lose some money and sending out a signal to potential future abusers of the system of the consequences of their actions.

Of course this raises other issues that have been alluded to here and elsewhere, namely if it was tax evasion and not avoidance will criminal charges follow.

Surely withholding PAYE and VAT for 9 months and then forcing the company into admin with HMRC as a creditor would be evidence enough, regardless of the position on EBT

[HTG]

Please refer to the first post on this thread! The endgame was what interested me, and what I asked in the first post. When the dust settled, I wondered just what the SPL / SFA / other club chairmen would actually do. The politicians, the media keyboard jockeys, even us diddies who post on forums... we have all had our say, expressed our views, but at the end of the day, they don't count. I genuinely think the likes of Doncaster & Regan are caught between a rock and a hard place. I don't think they have a clue what to do - how could they really? They don't know the result of the BTC, they don't know if they're looking at a CVA, new owners, liquidation... I can easily imagine both Doncaster & Regan locking themselves in the toilet, sitting on the pan, putting their head in their hands and quietly rocking back and forth, while muttering 'NOOOOOOOO! Make it all go away....'

Poor chaps. Now, get off the lavvy and when things become clearer, start earning your big bucks - fcuking deal with them - the same way you'd deal with any club in the same circumstances.

Amen.

[Jussy]

Think I read somewhere criminal charges for tax evasion in Scotland can only stick if there is evidence you knew what you were doing was evasion not avoidance and did it anyway. Even if Rangers fall onto the evasion side of the ruling, I doubt anyone could prove they intentionally evaded rather than avoided.

It might have been here: My link

It's pretty handy for explaining the nuances of the evasion/avoidance debate.

[Granny Danger]

Think I read somewhere criminal charges for tax evasion in Scotland can only stick if there is evidence you knew what you were doing was evasion not avoidance and did it anyway. Even if Rangers fall onto the evasion side of the ruling, I doubt anyone could prove they intentionally evaded rather than avoided.

The recent revelation that Martin Bain asked that a bonus be paid by way of a 'loan' from the EBT rather than in the conventional way could be evidence that it was known by the payee and the payer that the device was being used to knowingly avoid tax.

Surely withholding PAYE and VAT for 9 months and then forcing the company into admin with HMRC as a creditor would be evidence enough, regardless of the position on EBT

Sadly not. I have a business in an industry where if everyone who owed money to the HMRC then went into receivership was deemed to be a criminal then the Scottish government would have to build at least one new jail.

[speckled tangerine]

Pozbaird, i think we all know deep down how this `endgame` will be played. Rangers are completely unviable, will lose the tax cases and the current company will fold. A `newco` will be formed under new ownership and will end up playing in the SPL, at Ibrox in blue shirts with a technically different name and a similar badge. I`m sure that nobody agrees with the ethics of this, but deep down, we all know that `rangers` in whatever guise will not be allowed to disappear. They`re the RBS of sport. What`s the fucking point?

[Jambo'ness]

I've resigned myself to the fact that these cnuts will wriggle off the hook and take up their 'rightful' place in next years SPL, whichever bunch of crooks buys them.

However, I hold on to one mere morsel of hope and that is Vladimir Romanov

You could argue that Hearts are in a position not far from Rangers but at least each push has made them pay their tax.

I am hoping that dear Vlad is keeping his powder dry, unlike Thompson & Yorkston who, though legitimately, chased small sums. Hearts on the other hand are owed £800k.

Now we all know that several of the gers players are going to earn tidy little transfers in the summer but who will replace them? I am hopeful that Vlad would put the case for a transfer embargo, as however this pans out other SPL clubs will be monetarily affected thus impingeing on their ability to sign new players and field a competitive team.

If say, they got away with 10p in the pound, Hearts would receive £80k. How could they re-invest that? Meanwhile, der kaiser's X1, get a cash injection from a new owner and merrily go on their way.

I remember Hearts having an embargo placed on them after they signed Willie Pettigrew & Derek Addison in the early 80's, so there is a precedent.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Jambo'ness

[Broken Algorithms]

What is also astonishing is the utter lack of credible activity from fan's groups, who seem to have spent their time scrambling for relevance with the various dubious bidders for the club. In most administrations that I can think of- Plymouth, Dundee, Raith, Morton- a much smaller group of fans raised a small fortune and were instrumental in the preservation of their clubs in pretty dire circumstances. Still, it could be argued that the club's debts are so enormous that all the fan fundraisers in the world would have the same effect as throwing an eggcup of water on an inferno.

Only a wee gripe, but we've never been into administration. We just had a couple of cretins on the board who we needed to get rid of before they kicked us out of Stark's and turned it into flats.

But still, watching newsnight Scotland right now. Should be interest/hilarious

[HTG]

As I said, I regarded him as mostly harmless before this - a journeyman, who did a job, and was fairly good at it. I didn't look upon him as a Pulitzer Prize winner or anything. But this is just so far beyond the pale that I can't listen to him anymore.

To be fair to Chick, he was right to defend his relationship with guys like Murray and Lennon. You can't be a journalist in any walk of life without building trust with people you need (and who need you). But when it becomes clear one side or the other is taking the piss you back off. This is a business relationship first and foremost.

I'm not too bothered that someone like Chick didn't ask the hard questions when nobody else was either- auditors etc.

What bothers me more - as said before - is that we are constantly told football in this country can't survive without Rangers. It might look different but it can survive. And the playing field will be understood.

Rangers won't disappear - I think everyone knows that. But the current version should - they deserve to. History is one thing but it has now been tainted for 20 years. When they come back, it should be via the same route as Wimbledon. But of course there is no mechanism for that so the SFA/SFL/SPL have a problem of a magnitude they never thought they would have to deal with. In a Scottish pyramid, it would take Rangers about 6 seasons to put right 20 years of wrong- and do so properly. But without the right structure, they will need to be shoe-horned in ... pissing all over others in the process. The game up here only has itself to blame for that as self interest was never the exclusive preserve of Rangers.

[Mark Connolly]

I have a business in an industry where if everyone who owed money to the HMRC then went into receivership was deemed to be a criminal then the Scottish government would have to build at least one new jail.

I know of two plots of land in the Glasgow area that could be used for such a project...

[Bearwithme]

The recent revelation that Martin Bain asked that a bonus be paid by way of a 'loan' from the EBT rather than in the conventional way could be evidence that it was known by the payee and the payer that the device was being used to knowingly avoid tax.

Sadly not. I have a business in an industry where if everyone who owed money to the HMRC then went into receivership was deemed to be a criminal then the Scottish government would have to build at least one new jail.

1) Of course the device was being used to knowingly avoid tax. Even Rangers FC don't operate a tax planning scheme without being aware they're doing it.

2) You're right of course. Just not paying your bills on time is not a criminal offence.

[DensDerry80]

Stated when dundee went into admin:

In a statement the Scottish Football League said it regretted the situation Dundee are in but added it had acted to protect the "integrity" of the league. "We are of the opinion that lessons are not being learned," the statement said. "For example, clubs have to realise that, going forward, they cannot treat their [tax] obligations as something akin to a credit card."

[Mark Connolly]

£93,000,000 in tax.

That makes me phucking sick.

In a time when families are scrapping the bottom of a barrel for a living, school and other services are suffering, and our nation as a whole is suffering.

Take the lot, liquidise the c*nts who have spent all YOUR money on players. Luckily i'm a student so i'm not paying tax yet but makes me sick that they have done this, my family has helped to fund rangers......spew.

If rangers are given any kind of break on that 93MILLION, then I will, when I get full employment, expect a full tax refund on the percentage rangers were allowed. Many small businesses and lives have been destroyed by the tax man taking their money (unfortunately) so why an organisation as morally disgusting and with such over-paid staff should be allowed to continue a day further is beyond me.

Good luck HMRC....We are all routing for you,

how ironic it would be if the Queen killed one of her own.

I like how you hid the fact that you're a student who doesn't pay tax in the middle of a rant so no-one would spot it