Walking Down The Halbeath Road

[CallumPar]

18 minutes ago, Cardle is Magic said:

There’s only really a handful of players you would be gutted if they left tbf.

Yeah. Even those that I want to stay, if we get a half decent fee/sell-on, I’d be fine with them moving on. Very few players at the club are irreplaceable.

[AuldReekie]

7 minutes ago, CallumPar said:

Yeah. Even those that I want to stay, if we get a half decent fee/sell-on, I’d be fine with them moving on. Very few players at the club are irreplaceable.

Yep. It's the reality of football these days and an explicit part of the business model now - you bring players with potential in, you hope to develop them, and you try and sell them on for profit, ideally with a sell on clause. Otoo is perfect example - love watching the big guy play, has still lots to learn but has potential to play at a higher level. You hope we take him there but the club's (hopeful) progression will be slower than any individual player so the key is having them play well, impress other clubs and sell them on to boost the overall financial position of the club. Rinse and repeat.

There's a couple of players in my safe list who aren't good enough for the Premiership so they'll ideally be sold (for good or bad) at some point.

What's also an interesting discussion is our strategy around loans. It's unclear to me whether we have any real chance of signing Summers, Moffat, Fagan-Walcott on permanent deals (akin to the signing of Otoo and KRH) and I'm not sure how the club balances trying to develop loans into permanent contracts, as opposed to just using players for 6-12 months that can get you up the league (but knowing they'll drop out of your squad at some point). The fact we are targeting younger players with medium/long term potential suggests to me we want to get them on a permanent contract as part of the wider business strategy of selling them on. If it was all about using a loan player to help propel us up the league, I'd assume we'd see us being more competitive in some of the players teams around us are signing. 

[Diamond White]

1 hour ago, CallumPar said:

Yeah. Even those that I want to stay, if we get a half decent fee/sell-on, I’d be fine with them moving on. Very few players at the club are irreplaceable.

How much is a half decent fee?

[CallumPar]

22 minutes ago, Diamond White said:

How much is a half decent fee?

Obviously depends on the player. Key players, particularly the younger ones, we’d probably be looking for 6 figures and a sell-on %. Some players, we’d probably be happy with £30-50k plus a sell-on. There’s others that we’d probably let leave for very little. Also got to consider the fee we paid and sell-on % due to other clubs for some of our guys, when considering any offers we receive.

I believe that we are very clear with players though, that they will be allowed to move on for the right price. We’ll only stand in their way if the fee/package offered by doesn’t match their value to the club and/or if it’s a club in the same division.

Ultimately, in the modern game, we’ll never really know what players are bought/sold for as everything will be ‘undisclosed’.

[Rob1885]

I've very severe doubts about this business model tbh.

[Heaton]

2 hours ago, AuldReekie said:

What's also an interesting discussion is our strategy around loans. It's unclear to me whether we have any real chance of signing Summers, Moffat, Fagan-Walcott on permanent deals (akin to the signing of Otoo and KRH)

Pretty sure it was said that Fagan-Walcott was a summer target brought forward due to the injury list, with the board asking McPake if he wanted to try get him in now. He is out of contract and the end of this season I believe which leads me to thinking that is exactly what this could end up being

 

Edited January 18 by Heaton
Can't type!!

[The Toun Clock]

2 hours ago, AuldReekie said:

What's also an interesting discussion is our strategy around loans. It's unclear to me whether we have any real chance of signing Summers, Moffat, Fagan-Walcott on permanent deals (akin to the signing of Otoo and KRH)

I don't think Summers is an option permanently, but no reason why Celtic might not loan him back to us if he has a good second half to the season. I think he has the potential to play for Celtic and I think they think that as well. I watched Blackpool Vs Nottingham Forest last night. I like Moffat but there seemed to be a lot of similar players to him, like the boy Dembele that was at Celtic. He came off the bench and looked lively. I don't know if he'd play at Blackpool and McPake wanted him last season so every chance. Too early to say for Fagan-Walcott, however this was one eyed for the coming summer, so every chance if he's out of contract with Cardiff and he enjoys it here then it could work.

[AuldReekie]

21 minutes ago, Rob1885 said:

I've very severe doubts about this business model tbh.

Interested in your reasons.

I'm interested in it alongside our clear desire to develop a decent academy. For me, the merry-go-round of managers and players, hoping to hit a good combination for a while (alongside a good owner/board) and move up the leagues, doesn't really build up a longer-term foundation for the club. A David Wotherspoon (just as an example) joining the Pars and then moving on doesn't really do anything for me - we use him, he uses us, hopefully we get a bit better, but often we'll pay inflated salaries for guys who have reached (roughly) the level we're at. Of course, there's nothing wrong with this - if well run, the club can make a success of it.

But I am interested in trying to establish credible academy, where decent players might start their career or at least see Dunfermline as being instrumental in the early stages of their career. We hopefully produce some players that are able supplement the first team squad - such players are cheaper (in wages at least), they are in investment and from a romantic point of view, I'd love to see players go on from Dunfermline to play at a higher level. The challenge of course is ensuring that the academy pays for itself, whether that's by producing players that can play for the first team, sell-on for fees that fund the academy, facilities that can be used by the community, etc.

It's undoubtably a harder business strategy to execute. 

[CallumPar]

39 minutes ago, Rob1885 said:

I've very severe doubts about this business model tbh.

What are your doubts/concerns?

For me, I think it’s sensible/logical. Certainly more sustainable as a football club than buying/paying big wages for a squad of players at their peak/on their way to retirement. Do we need a bit more experience? Yes, I think so. But I’m happy with the younger guys we have and the potential to sell a few of them, who will go onto bigger and better things.

Regarding loans, I’d imagine we’re trying to build a positive relationship with clubs like Celtic, so we get to work with some of their best youngsters. Otoo was desperate to stay, then both Summers and Moffat said he was a big influence on them choosing to come here (albeit, on loan). If we loan players from these clubs and they tell teammates about loving their time, it might help us to recruit some that don’t make the cut at first team level there. 

[HoBNob]

I'm with Rob on this one tbh. 

This is a bit of a long one, but looking at history of clubs in this division how many have managed to get promoted while selling off youth players? The only one I can think off would be Hamilton, even then though they managed to get promoted before they had to start selling off there youth players. From memory they only started to sell them once they get to the prem? Meanwhile Falkirk and Livingston absolutely didn't manage having a successful youth side, with having a promotion capable team. 

In my opinion, it's pretty hard to build a youth side up over a few years for a few reasons. The first one being contracts, if you're lucky you'll get a player on a three year contract, chances are they'll still be adjusting in the first year, they'll hopefully be good in the second, but if they are you then need to sell. You can't risk keeping them for the third season and leaving for nothing. 

As I've said before football at this level goes in cycles, that cycle only becomes more pronounced when you aim for young players. Look at us for example, if we don't get promoted next season we'll have a major rebuild on the way. 

Todd, Otoo, KRH, Fisher and McCann will all be at there optimal sell on point next summer, while Edwards will likely leave for nothing. 

IMO, if our aim is promotion then we're not going for the optimal route. Even having an academy which is expensive as f**k will impact that. 

We have an advantage over most sides at this level in that we've got large crowds, with those large crowds we should bring in more money, not just through the gates but commercially that should mean we're a bit better off, as well as that we have fans donating money on top of that. I worry that the money from all that is going to go on players potentials who that we'll never actually see. 

Raith Rovers didn't do anything complicated in the summer, they just bought the best players available for the level they're at, we done it when we signed Cardle, Gibson, Graham, Gibson etc. 

When the academy comes along, will we be a more attractive prospect than Hearts and Hibs who will be twenty minutes over the bridge at the highest level of youth football in the country? 

[DA Baracus]

Pitch and heating repaired the heating hasn't, and won't, be turned on.

[AuldReekie]

All fair points I think. 

Definitely don't think it's easy and maybe calling it a fully-fledged academy is over-selling it. I'm not talking about building a youth side - far from it. It would be hard enough for a club of our size to survive in Premiership with seasoned pros - we ain't about to do with the young team. Instead, I really see it being just enough to complement the first team, be a facility that attracts players to the club, enhances our reputation, etc.

To put it another way, be the club we want to be in future, not the club we are now. If we can establish ourselves as a Premiership club, I think the academy and it's facilities build an infrastructure we want to try and establish long term success. 

It's nae easy though. I'll give you that. 

[Rob1885]

4 hours ago, AuldReekie said:

Interested in your reasons.

I'm interested in it alongside our clear desire to develop a decent academy. For me, the merry-go-round of managers and players, hoping to hit a good combination for a while (alongside a good owner/board) and move up the leagues, doesn't really build up a longer-term foundation for the club. A David Wotherspoon (just as an example) joining the Pars and then moving on doesn't really do anything for me - we use him, he uses us, hopefully we get a bit better, but often we'll pay inflated salaries for guys who have reached (roughly) the level we're at. Of course, there's nothing wrong with this - if well run, the club can make a success of it.

But I am interested in trying to establish credible academy, where decent players might start their career or at least see Dunfermline as being instrumental in the early stages of their career. We hopefully produce some players that are able supplement the first team squad - such players are cheaper (in wages at least), they are in investment and from a romantic point of view, I'd love to see players go on from Dunfermline to play at a higher level. The challenge of course is ensuring that the academy pays for itself, whether that's by producing players that can play for the first team, sell-on for fees that fund the academy, facilities that can be used by the community, etc.

It's undoubtably a harder business strategy to execute. 

Think these things come organically, don't think it sets you up very well for the future. The 2 provincial clubs with the best rack record for producing talent and selling them in the last 15 years   find themselves in league 1.

 

I'd rather we just make use of the sizeable budget we should have at this level and make the correct decisions footballing wise. That board set us back fucking years with that Peter Grant appointment.

 

I also will die on the hill that the academy money is a total waste of money and we should have just made a base at East End. Already got a gym, lay an astro which turns into a money making exercise itself. 

 

That'll come across very negative but I'll still support them all my days.

[AuldReekie]

Not negative at all. Reasonable opinion.  

Only objection I'd have is in relation to artificial pitch. With doubt around long term legality in Premiership I'd see it as risky investment. If we plan to get there, I wouldn't be laying one just now. 

 

 

[Cardle is Magic]

Not sure why people are assuming Edwards will be leaving for nothing?

[Stellaboz]

Out of contract and i guess comp would be minimal compared to a fee if he had a year or two left?

[Cardle is Magic]

36 minutes ago, Stellaboz said:

Out of contract and i guess comp would be minimal compared to a fee if he had a year or two left?

I thought the club had already cleared up that they had taken up an option to extend?

Edit - found the quote:

"The club has an option in our favour to extend Josh’s contract if we want to keep him," McPake explained.

"I had heard a few rumours that he was out of contract and teams will be looking at him, but that's not the case. One hundred per cent we will be taking up that option.”

Edited January 19 by Cardle is Magic

[HoBNob]

1 hour ago, Cardle is Magic said:

I thought the club had already cleared up that they had taken up an option to extend?

Edit - found the quote:

"The club has an option in our favour to extend Josh’s contract if we want to keep him," McPake explained.

"I had heard a few rumours that he was out of contract and teams will be looking at him, but that's not the case. One hundred per cent we will be taking up that option.”

I've not been very clear in my dates, by next Summer I meant Summer '25, by which point Edwards (as it stands) will be out of contract, and the other players I mentioned will have one year left on their contract. 

[Cardle is Magic]

8 minutes ago, HoBNob said:

I've not been very clear in my dates, by next Summer I meant Summer '25, by which point Edwards (as it stands) will be out of contract, and the other players I mentioned will have one year left on their contract. 

I would think that part of the appeal of taking up the extra year option is that it provides the club with an extra opportunity to cash in.

If other clubs are interested and we are wary of losing him for nothing at the end of next season, then we should be looking to sell in the summer.

[par-adise]

I see Dundee have signed a CB which might mean we some movement on Ashcroft. Although I think he'll be off to Raith as that seems a better opportunity in the shorter term at least.