Lets All Laugh At Rangers Thread

[madhibby]

Rangers and sectarianism - where do you start?

I'm a Hibs fan who lives in Glasgow.

And of course the vast majority of Rangers fans assume we Hibbies are "Celtics cousins" and thus must be of the Roman Catholic persuasion and support a United Ireland and the SNP!

Is that fair to Rangers as club? I do go to Ibrox when Hibs are playing there and if my Hibs scarf is seen then my experience is of horrible sectarian abuse of the "****** bast***s" type. And do Rangers do much/anything to discourage this behaviour - I don't think so - there still seems to be a sense of entitlement around the Ibrox hierarchy - we are a Protestant Unionist club (despite adherence to religion falling massively) who support Queen/King and Country and that seems to dominate the clubs thinking. Sectarian chanting is all too common at Ibrox and is probably worse when Hibs are there due to how Hibs are perceived as the catholic enemy. I think sectarian chanting at Ibrox has declined from (say) 30 years ago but it is still too commonplace with the Club doing little about it. And Police Scotland, probably reflecting the make up of the west coast police just seem to accept these horrible hateful and illegal chants.

Living in Glasgow I do come across plenty Rangers fans in non match situations - most folk know I'm a Hibbie  but I try and avoid discussions on what Rangers are about. It usually ends up, if we get to discuss Rangers "values" the usual "whataboutery" - Celtic fans chanting in support of the IRA and Hibs fans being disrespectful to the Royal Family. 

Will it get better? A lot more, predominately young males seem to be supporting their local team via Ultras and maybe in the past they might have been Rangers or Celtic fans - so maybe that is possible an unconscious rebellion against the values of the Old Firm? Rangers fans need to want to make their club change and I dont see much sign of that - they seem to revile in being the Millwall of Scotland - nobody likes us and we dont care - with no attempt to understand why they are so disliked by most other football supporters.

[VincentGuerin]

3 hours ago, AJF said:

I don’t think we aren’t a bigoted institution just because he left though. I simply believe that the decisions that are made that appeal to a certain element are made in order to pretty much milk that element of the support as they view certain things as easy wins commercially (orange tops, for example).

 

A normal person would view this as completely unacceptable.

It's actually quite staggering that you'll write out that you don't think the club is bigoted, it's just happy to encourage bigotry to make money, and you're happy to keep supporting them on that basis. A normal football club tries to stop it's fans behaving like bigots. Your mindset on this is absolutely wild.

You're honestly not right.

If someone admitted to being fine with any institution encouraging anti-black sentiment purely to make money, they'd be reviled as a scumbag. But you say it about Rangers and people will criticise me for saying you are at best bigotry-neutral. At best.

Your own words hang you out to dry here. The people sticking up for you on here need to take a wee minute and actually read the nonsense you're coming out with.

Edited September 13, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[Trackdaybob]

Anyways.......................

[AJF]

19 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

If someone admitted to being fine with any institution encouraging anti-black sentiment purely to make money, they'd be reviled as a scumbag. But you say it about Rangers and people will criticise me for saying you are at best bigotry-neutral. At best.

But that's the thing, I haven't said I am fine with Rangers encouraging anything. You are inferring something I haven't said - not for the first time. I gave my opinion on why I think they make certain commercial decisions, not that I support it.

You will no doubt claim that by supporting Rangers as a team I am therefore by default saying I am fine with it. If so, then we will need to agree to disagree.

[VincentGuerin]

19 minutes ago, AJF said:

But that's the thing, I haven't said I am fine with Rangers encouraging anything. You are inferring something I haven't said - not for the first time. I gave my opinion on why I think they make certain commercial decisions, not that I support it.

You will no doubt claim that by supporting Rangers as a team I am therefore by default saying I am fine with it. If so, then we will need to agree to disagree.

Yes. You are.

I'd ask other fans reading this to consider how they'd reflect on their continuing support for their club if they suddenly started pandering to racists and bigots the way AJF considers his club does, let alone had been doing it for a century and a half with no sign of stopping.

Edited September 13, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[Dons_1988]

15 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Yes. You are.

I'd ask other fans reading this to consider how they'd reflect on their continuing support for their club if they suddenly started pandering to racists and bigots the way AJF considers his club does, let alone had been doing it for a century and a half with no sign of stopping.

I think you’re being unnecessarily personal here. 

BUT, this does come back to one of your original points that was maybe a bit hyperbolic that remove football context and rangers would be shut down.

I doubt they would be shut down but you’d like to think if this shit wasn’t so normalised in Scottish football culture that any regulatory body would come down like a ton of bricks on any member trying to commercially exploit a bigoted culture. It simply wouldn’t fly. 

Rangers seem to get away with some cheery campaigns and then a shrug of the shoulders and ‘we’ve done everything we can’. 

[VincentGuerin]

6 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I think you’re being unnecessarily personal here. 

BUT, this does come back to one of your original points that was maybe a bit hyperbolic that remove football context and rangers would be shut down.

I doubt they would be shut down but you’d like to think if this shit wasn’t so normalised in Scottish football culture that any regulatory body would come down like a ton of bricks on any member trying to commercially exploit a bigoted culture. It simply wouldn’t fly. 

Rangers seem to get away with some cheery campaigns and then a shrug of the shoulders and ‘we’ve done everything we can’. 

Well, commenting directly on his statements cannot be anything other than personal. I stand by all I've said. I think the forum has a massive blind-spot here and this lad is hiding in plain sight. What more would you like him to say to out himself as a wrong'un? Would you be saying I was being a bit personal if the club he supported encouraged hatred of black people?

And my persisting with him is related to the point that I disagree is hyperbolic. I can't imagine another context in which an operation like Rangers would be tolerated in public life. Can you? I do not believe we should be letting Rangers fans off with it any more. The only way things will change is if this shite becomes socially unacceptable. That means pointing out that it is at every opportunity and removing the legitimacy bigots hide behind in football.

We don't give a pass to people who are in the EDL or the BNP etc, but we give a pass to Rangers fans, who choose to align themselves with all the shite they do, even when, as AJF has said of himself, they see what is going on.

Honestly, f**k them.

[bennett]

1 hour ago, madhibby said:

Rangers and sectarianism - where do you start?

I'm a Hibs fan who lives in Glasgow.

And of course the vast majority of Rangers fans assume we Hibbies are "Celtics cousins" and thus must be of the Roman Catholic persuasion and support a United Ireland and the SNP!

Is that fair to Rangers as club? I do go to Ibrox when Hibs are playing there and if my Hibs scarf is seen then my experience is of horrible sectarian abuse of the "****** bast***s" type. And do Rangers do much/anything to discourage this behaviour - I don't think so - there still seems to be a sense of entitlement around the Ibrox hierarchy - we are a Protestant Unionist club (despite adherence to religion falling massively) who support Queen/King and Country and that seems to dominate the clubs thinking. Sectarian chanting is all too common at Ibrox and is probably worse when Hibs are there due to how Hibs are perceived as the catholic enemy. I think sectarian chanting at Ibrox has declined from (say) 30 years ago but it is still too commonplace with the Club doing little about it. And Police Scotland, probably reflecting the make up of the west coast police just seem to accept these horrible hateful and illegal chants.

Living in Glasgow I do come across plenty Rangers fans in non match situations - most folk know I'm a Hibbie  but I try and avoid discussions on what Rangers are about. It usually ends up, if we get to discuss Rangers "values" the usual "whataboutery" - Celtic fans chanting in support of the IRA and Hibs fans being disrespectful to the Royal Family. 

Will it get better? A lot more, predominately young males seem to be supporting their local team via Ultras and maybe in the past they might have been Rangers or Celtic fans - so maybe that is possible an unconscious rebellion against the values of the Old Firm? Rangers fans need to want to make their club change and I dont see much sign of that - they seem to revile in being the Millwall of Scotland - nobody likes us and we dont care - with no attempt to understand why they are so disliked by most other football supporters.

 

For anything to be done to stop bigotry in football, we would require Rangers and celtic to work together with the SFA/SPFL.  Targeting only one side won't get much support and leads to accusations of selectarianism.  If you're genuine about stopping it...

You are right about the highlighted bit, a fair section of our support do seem to enjoy playing the villain role.

UEFA style sanctions should apply to our game,  fines/stand closures/ground closures etc.

 

[Sortmeout]

16 hours ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

I'm sure Benny is/was an SNP and Independence voter.

Good for him. Thanks for letting me know.

[LiviLion]

1 hour ago, madhibby said:

do Rangers do much/anything to discourage this behaviour

They actively lean into it, which is why I'm more than content with saying that "decent Rangers fans" don't exist. You don't join in with the singing? Cool, but you still choose to support an organisation that actively try to fuel religious hatred for profit.

[Jaggy McJagface]

31 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I think you’re being unnecessarily personal here. 

BUT, this does come back to one of your original points that was maybe a bit hyperbolic that remove football context and rangers would be shut down.

I doubt they would be shut down but you’d like to think if this shit wasn’t so normalised in Scottish football culture that any regulatory body would come down like a ton of bricks on any member trying to commercially exploit a bigoted culture. It simply wouldn’t fly. 

Rangers seem to get away with some cheery campaigns and then a shrug of the shoulders and ‘we’ve done everything we can’. 

I don’t doubt AJF is genuine and I’m sure everybody has met plenty Rangers fans that aren’t bigots in their life.

 

The thing that sticks out to me though is that all the “good ones” basically have to stick their heads in the sand to a certain degree, or minimise the extent of the problem, because by doing otherwise they’d have to reflect on how they support a club which encourages and normalises bigotry and has a hugely detrimental effect on society in the west of Scotland.

I often wonder what I’d do if I’d ended up a Rangers fan growing up (could have happened - my dad was one) assuming my values and politics are the same as they are now. I can’t imagine how I’d be able to stomach supporting such an organisation and I find it hard to understand those who do. I think that’s why a lot of people think even the “good ones” tacitly endorse the bigotry by continuing to support the club in spite of it.

[Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Sortmeout said:

Good for him. Thanks for letting me know.

You're more than welcome. Thanks for getting back to me.

[Sortmeout]

3 hours ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

You're more than welcome. Thanks for getting back to me.

Would have been rude not to. Enjoy your evening.

[Dons_1988]

5 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

Well, commenting directly on his statements cannot be anything other than personal. I stand by all I've said. I think the forum has a massive blind-spot here and this lad is hiding in plain sight. What more would you like him to say to out himself as a wrong'un? Would you be saying I was being a bit personal if the club he supported encouraged hatred of black people?

And my persisting with him is related to the point that I disagree is hyperbolic. I can't imagine another context in which an operation like Rangers would be tolerated in public life. Can you? I do not believe we should be letting Rangers fans off with it any more. The only way things will change is if this shite becomes socially unacceptable. That means pointing out that it is at every opportunity and removing the legitimacy bigots hide behind in football.

We don't give a pass to people who are in the EDL or the BNP etc, but we give a pass to Rangers fans, who choose to align themselves with all the shite they do, even when, as AJF has said of himself, they see what is going on.

Honestly, f**k them.

I don’t think we’re disagreeing here on anything to do with rangers. 

I do disagree with you going in two footed on a guy who’s been pretty open and engaged on the issue in the face of a lot of shite. I think there’s a blind spot there too and I’d love it if guys like him had a proper think about it but you go way too far attacking him. 

[VincentGuerin]

45 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I don’t think we’re disagreeing here on anything to do with rangers. 

I do disagree with you going in two footed on a guy who’s been pretty open and engaged on the issue in the face of a lot of shite. I think there’s a blind spot there too and I’d love it if guys like him had a proper think about it but you go way too far attacking him. 

I don't think he has been. I think he's a classic example of a mask slipped.

His posts on this thread show that for all his "it must stop" playing to the gallery, he's actually AOK with Rangers using bigotry to make money and is doing a very weak job of being convincingly troubled by bigotry in any way. In short, he's exactly what I was describing a few pages back. Someone who's fine with bigotry kidding on that he doesn't like it.

This is essentially what Rangers' support is. Part of the reason they continue to be accepted in society is this fairytale they've constructed of the minority of baddies and the massed ranks of 'decent' Rangers fans. It's absolute nonsense, and it's a fiction that perpetuates the problem.

Supporting Rangers is accepting bigotry. At best. And we should just start calling a spade a fucking spade instead of worrying about hurting bigots' feelings.

Anyway, that'll do me. To be honest, I think his posts speak for themselves.

Edited September 13, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[Sortmeout]

8 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

Well, commenting directly on his statements cannot be anything other than personal. I stand by all I've said. I think the forum has a massive blind-spot here and this lad is hiding in plain sight. What more would you like him to say to out himself as a wrong'un? Would you be saying I was being a bit personal if the club he supported encouraged hatred of black people?

And my persisting with him is related to the point that I disagree is hyperbolic. I can't imagine another context in which an operation like Rangers would be tolerated in public life. Can you? I do not believe we should be letting Rangers fans off with it any more. The only way things will change is if this shite becomes socially unacceptable. That means pointing out that it is at every opportunity and removing the legitimacy bigots hide behind in football.

We don't give a pass to people who are in the EDL or the BNP etc, but we give a pass to Rangers fans, who choose to align themselves with all the shite they do, even when, as AJF has said of himself, they see what is going on.

Honestly, f**k them.

Why do you care so much about how other people view @AJF? Or any other poster?

“Hiding in plain sight”?  Calm down Columbo.

[RandomGuy.]

Yeah @AJF is a poster i like on here, but hes the type of fans whos a major reason the actual bigoted Rangers fans get away with it and why Rangers dont need to try and change.

If you align yourself with them by supporting the same club, then you either use that to try and affect change, or you get tarred with the same brush. Fly with the crows etc.

If its really the "minority" then theres absolutely nothing preventing the "majority" forming a group to both put pressure on the club/fanbase to stop acting the way they do. Rangers fans surely want that so they dont have to bring their kids into that atmosphere? A group of 30k fans saying they wont go to games unless it stops would be a major stance and would be taken seriously, but its clear theres not enough interest within the support to do that.

Instead virtually all the "decent" ones just get defensive, claim they have no choice over supporting Rangers or preventing the songs, and, unconsciously, try and persuade others that its just an inevitable, normal, part of life you cant avoid.

It wont change because too many Rangers fans dont want it to change. Too many grown adults still acting like children who dont believe they can do things to Rangers their parents didnt do and will bring their children up the same way.

Edited September 14, 2023 by RandomGuy.

[Derry Alli]

Let's not make it out it's just Rangers and Celtic fans. Plenty of times people have posted on here about their own fanbases shouting stuff, be it racist, homophobic or whatever. When asked if they done anything at the time it's always "Nah, there was a few of them/I had my children with me". 

Turning a blind eye and bleating about it online is a problem in our society as a whole. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Derry Alli

[RandomGuy.]

11 minutes ago, Derry Alli said:

Let's not make it out it's just Rangers and Celtic fans. Plenty of times people have posted on here about their own fanbases shouting stuff, be it racist, homophobic or whatever. When asked if they done anything at the time it's always "Nah, there was a few of them/I had my children with me". 

Turning a blind eye and bleating about it online is a problem in our society as a whole. 

Im not saying Rangers fans need to act individually in the stadium. If they dont feel safe doing so then thats fair enough IMO.

I dont see whats stopping the "majority" banding together though to put pressure on the club to actually act though. I dont see why anyone would want to put their kid into that atmosphere, so surely enacting change would be a positive as it would mean they could happily continue whats presumably an important family tradition of supporting the club. 

Seen plenty of examples of online campaigns picking up steam and clubs responding to them. If needs be it could relatively anonymous due to the nature of some Rangers fans (RangersMedia types who seem like theyd genuinely try and find your address to threaten you if you started this type of campaign).

Just do something other than normalising it by saying its always been there so theres nothing you can do.

If Saints ever had an overall atmosphere, and i doubt we'll ever have a big enough group appear in our support to do so + dont have the historic "baggage" that encourages it, on similar lines then id definitely be up for putting pressure on the club to get rid. Theyve already banned our "ultra" group in the past for how they acted (particularly at away games) though.

[Jacksgranda]

19 hours ago, madhibby said:

Rangers and sectarianism - where do you start?

I'm a Hibs fan who lives in Glasgow.

And of course the vast majority of Rangers fans assume we Hibbies are "Celtics cousins" and thus must be of the Roman Catholic persuasion and support a United Ireland and the SNP!

Is that fair to Rangers as club? I do go to Ibrox when Hibs are playing there and if my Hibs scarf is seen then my experience is of horrible sectarian abuse of the "****** bast***s" type. And do Rangers do much/anything to discourage this behaviour - I don't think so - there still seems to be a sense of entitlement around the Ibrox hierarchy - we are a Protestant Unionist club (despite adherence to religion falling massively) who support Queen/King and Country and that seems to dominate the clubs thinking. Sectarian chanting is all too common at Ibrox and is probably worse when Hibs are there due to how Hibs are perceived as the catholic enemy. I think sectarian chanting at Ibrox has declined from (say) 30 years ago but it is still too commonplace with the Club doing little about it. And Police Scotland, probably reflecting the make up of the west coast police just seem to accept these horrible hateful and illegal chants.

Living in Glasgow I do come across plenty Rangers fans in non match situations - most folk know I'm a Hibbie  but I try and avoid discussions on what Rangers are about. It usually ends up, if we get to discuss Rangers "values" the usual "whataboutery" - Celtic fans chanting in support of the IRA and Hibs fans being disrespectful to the Royal Family. 

Will it get better? A lot more, predominately young males seem to be supporting their local team via Ultras and maybe in the past they might have been Rangers or Celtic fans - so maybe that is possible an unconscious rebellion against the values of the Old Firm? Rangers fans need to want to make their club change and I dont see much sign of that - they seem to revile in being the Millwall of Scotland - nobody likes us and we dont care - with no attempt to understand why they are so disliked by most other football supporters.

Self hate must be a terrible thing...