Sons' sorrow

[Jan Vojáček]

2 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

With the exception of Gray and Lynas I really hope the pause button is pressed on any more re-signings at least until we know what Division we'll be in. If we go up with most of the current squad still in place we'll be struggling from day one.

Good news is that Gray is already signed until the summer of 2024. Which was a superb move imo because there would be plenty of clubs sniffing around him after this season.

[The Moonster]

8 minutes ago, pleslie99 said:

But my point is we are signing up the ones that are good, or the best of what we have. Can we realistically find better than long? Gray? Bucky? Maybe but it’s a gamble. I’d rather we got the better guys signed up early, then bulked up the squad in the close season. Let the not so good guys leave. 

The discussion started after Ross MacLean was given a two year deal with a poster suggesting up to 10 had been offered deals. Long was signed up for next season last summer and Gray was signed before Christmas. Neither Wilson or MacLean are guys I'd keep around for League 1, I'd keep Wilson for League 2 but not as a starter (I know he has his admirers in our support but he's a League 2 squad player for me). Bucky hasn't signed anything yet has he? We'll see who else signs up but if we're offering a further 10 of this squad deals I'd say that's a gamble in itself. I hope it's not done in the name of continuity when there are absolutely players to be found at this level. Charlie Reilly and Tommy Goss two pretty good examples, Joe Bevan looking like a find as well, all at clubs with resources less than ours. 

[Frank Quitely]

26 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

The discussion started after Ross MacLean was given a two year deal with a poster suggesting up to 10 had been offered deals. Long was signed up for next season last summer and Gray was signed before Christmas. Neither Wilson or MacLean are guys I'd keep around for League 1, I'd keep Wilson for League 2 but not as a starter (I know he has his admirers in our support but he's a League 2 squad player for me). Bucky hasn't signed anything yet has he? We'll see who else signs up but if we're offering a further 10 of this squad deals I'd say that's a gamble in itself. I hope it's not done in the name of continuity when there are absolutely players to be found at this level. Charlie Reilly and Tommy Goss two pretty good examples, Joe Bevan looking like a find as well, all at clubs with resources less than ours. 

I agree.  TBH, I've been concerned since the extension of the manager's contract.  And it sounds like he's now in the driving seat here.

[Clarko_son]

59 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

The discussion started after Ross MacLean was given a two year deal with a poster suggesting up to 10 had been offered deals. Long was signed up for next season last summer and Gray was signed before Christmas. Neither Wilson or MacLean are guys I'd keep around for League 1, I'd keep Wilson for League 2 but not as a starter (I know he has his admirers in our support but he's a League 2 squad player for me). Bucky hasn't signed anything yet has he? We'll see who else signs up but if we're offering a further 10 of this squad deals I'd say that's a gamble in itself. I hope it's not done in the name of continuity when there are absolutely players to be found at this level. Charlie Reilly and Tommy Goss two pretty good examples, Joe Bevan looking like a find as well, all at clubs with resources less than ours. 

Not yet, he was a 2 year deal at the start of 21/22

[Victor mcdade]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

The discussion started after Ross MacLean was given a two year deal with a poster suggesting up to 10 had been offered deals. Long was signed up for next season last summer and Gray was signed before Christmas. Neither Wilson or MacLean are guys I'd keep around for League 1, I'd keep Wilson for League 2 but not as a starter (I know he has his admirers in our support but he's a League 2 squad player for me). Bucky hasn't signed anything yet has he? We'll see who else signs up but if we're offering a further 10 of this squad deals I'd say that's a gamble in itself. I hope it's not done in the name of continuity when there are absolutely players to be found at this level. Charlie Reilly and Tommy Goss two pretty good examples, Joe Bevan looking like a find as well, all at clubs with resources less than ours. 

No harm for us to be starting wilson, good player, has his past spell with us clouded your judgement perhaps?

Continuity worked for arbroath, turning bang average players into solid players, supplemented with better players as they moved up.

 

[FifeSons]

I don’t really buy the continuity argument. Just because it worked for Montrose and Arbroath, doesn’t mean you can throw together a manager and bunch of players who aren’t good enough and expect them to eventually become good enough, if you stick with it.

Campbell and Petrie are also far better managers than Farrell.

Edited April 16, 2023 by FifeSons

[Victor mcdade]

3 hours ago, FifeSons said:

I don’t really buy the continuity argument. Just because it worked for Montrose and Arbroath, doesn’t mean you can throw together a manager and bunch of players who aren’t good enough and expect them to eventually become good enough, if you stick with it.

Campbell and Petrie are also far better managers than Farrell.

Long, Wallace, gray, Wilson arent good enough?

Maclean is inconsistent sure, but 4 out of 5 isn't bad?  

Not saying it will work but most sport teams who keep a base of a team together and build on it usually go places.  

I do take your point about farrell though.

[FifeSons]

2 hours ago, Victor mcdade said:

Long, Wallace, gray, Wilson arent good enough?

Maclean is inconsistent sure, but 4 out of 5 isn't bad?  

Not saying it will work but most sport teams who keep a base of a team together and build on it usually go places.  

I do take your point about farrell though.

My point is that having continuity for continuity’s sake, doesn’t mean you’ll become a great team. Frankly, I think it’s just being used as an excuse to keep Farrell in the job if he fails to get us up, under the guise that we’ll only ever improve the longer he stays.

I also wouldn’t automatically dish out 2 year deals to players who are massively injury-prone and then be shocked when we have a bench of two outfield players.

[BallochSonsFan]

4 hours ago, Victor mcdade said:

Long, Wallace, gray, Wilson arent good enough?

Maclean is inconsistent sure, but 4 out of 5 isn't bad?  

Not saying it will work but most sport teams who keep a base of a team together and build on it usually go places.  

I do take your point about farrell though.

 

I'm not overly keen on Wallace on an extended deal tbh. Took him an awful long time to start showing anything. Is his good spell a sign of what we should expect from him, or is it an outlier? The others? Long and Gray are no brainers. Wilson and Maclean aren't terrible decisions.

Obviously consistency is only good if it doesnt mean being consistently bad. You wouldn't want to throw deals at Lynch or Rusty just because they''re already Dumbarton players. I also wouldn't offer a new deal to the likes of Wylde. There's a lot to be said in favour of not having to completely rebuild a squad every single year. Ideally I'd want no more than 50% player turnover. That should still give scope to bring in players who'll improve the squad.

There also needs to be a degree of stability at board level and with club finances. Sadly that's not the case. It could well be a case of the manager securing players he knows because of uncertainty as to what resources will be available in the summer.

[The Moonster]

9 hours ago, Victor mcdade said:

No harm for us to be starting wilson, good player, has his past spell with us clouded your judgement perhaps?

Continuity worked for arbroath, turning bang average players into solid players, supplemented with better players as they moved up.

 

Like I said, all about opinions here but for me if we want to go up and stay in that division then guys like Wilson aren't starters for me. 

Which average Arbroath players were transformed? Arbroath had a good group of players, good backing and (most crucially) a manager who knew what the f**k he was doing. Continuity works for Montrose because they have good backing and can afford to hold onto their much sought after manager and get really good loan deals in to supplement what they have. Our situation isn't remotely comparable as we have a fairly limited manager working with a fairly limited budget. Arbroath and Montrose were/are able to have guys like Tam O'Brien, Bobby Linn, Cammy Ballantyne, Rory McAllister on their books, all guys who could probably play at tier 2 level - who in our squad is good enough to play with us all the way to the Championship? Long? At a push Blair? Everyone else would be punted for a promotion push at the Champ, which is why this current clqmour for continuity doesn't make much sense to me - what is the end goal of this contuity? Suvival in League 1, being safe from League 2 trapdoor? Or do the club actually have ambitions to get back to the Championship?

4 hours ago, Victor mcdade said:

 

Maclean is inconsistent sure, but 4 out of 5 isn't bad?  

You been on the cans Victor? MacLean shows up for about 4 games a season, not 4 in 5. 

[Sweet Pete]

4 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

You been on the cans Victor? MacLean shows up for about 4 games a season, not 4 in 5. 

I read it as 4 worthwhile players given extensions and 1 inconsistent one. Hence 4 out of 5.

[The Moonster]

Just now, Sweet Pete said:

I read it as 4 worthwhile players given extensions and 1 inconsistent one. Hence 4 out of 5.

Ah, fair enough. I disagree there as well but fair enough. 

[Frank Quitely]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

Like I said, all about opinions here but for me if we want to go up and stay in that division then guys like Wilson aren't starters for me. 

Which average Arbroath players were transformed? Arbroath had a good group of players, good backing and (most crucially) a manager who knew what the f**k he was doing. Continuity works for Montrose because they have good backing and can afford to hold onto their much sought after manager and get really good loan deals in to supplement what they have. Our situation isn't remotely comparable as we have a fairly limited manager working with a fairly limited budget. Arbroath and Montrose were/are able to have guys like Tam O'Brien, Bobby Linn, Cammy Ballantyne, Rory McAllister on their books, all guys who could probably play at tier 2 level - who in our squad is good enough to play with us all the way to the Championship? Long? At a push Blair? Everyone else would be punted for a promotion push at the Champ, which is why this current clqmour for continuity doesn't make much sense to me - what is the end goal of this contuity? Suvival in League 1, being safe from League 2 trapdoor? Or do the club actually have ambitions to get back to the Championship?

You been on the cans Victor? MacLean shows up for about 4 games a season, not 4 in 5. 

If we don't go up this season then this thread is going to be a bonfire .

We would have a situation where a relegation followed by blowing a ten-point lead sees the manager given an advance contract extension in the name of continuity.  I can't think of many other clubs where that would happen.

[Jan Vojáček]

We might not want to lose sight of the fact that this team has been fairly good this season. Aye we could rip it up completely and start from scratch. That could work. But, imo, we're not too far off where we need to be. As our league position shows.

A bit more firepower (or Declan Byrne with some new legs) coupled with basically the same defence, goalkeeper and central midfield wouldn't have us a million miles away from the title squad wise. Whether Faz is the man to put a title winning season together is up for debate, but I don't think retaining a good chunk of this squad is too bad an idea.

I was just taking a look at Stirling's summer business. Now they finished mid-table last year (albeit with Darren Young only appointed in the December) and their summer business was:

Quote

IN: Danny Burns (Shotts Bon Accord), Cammy Clark (Annan Athletic), Josh Cooper (Greenock Morton), Ross Davidson (East Fife), Danny Denholm (East Fife), Aaron Dunsmore (East Fife, loan made permanent), Robert Thomson (Stenhousemuir), Harrison Clark (Livingston, loan), Kai Fotheringham (Dundee United, loan)

OUT: Robb Dryden (East Kilbride), Nathan Flanagan (Forfar Athletic), Akeel Francis (Sleaford Town), James Grant (Broomhill), Ray Grant (Clyde), Kyle Johnston (Bo'ness United), Marc Laird (Civil Service Strollers), Dylan Mackin (Kilwinning Rangers), Martin McNiff (Dumbarton), Kurtis Roberts (Clyde), Mason Hancock (Aberdeen, end of loan), Dylan Paterson (Arbroath, end of loan), Sandy Carey

That's some shrewd additions in key areas, but nothing you'd look at and go 'wow, they will win the league at a canter'.

Cammy Clark addressed their left-back issue and has been an excellent signing. Ross Davidson is a player that Darren Young knows, rates and trusts. Robert Thomson is a player I'd have at us in a heartbeat, but came off an injury hit and underwhelming year at Stenny. Cooper and Denholm are solid L2 squad players.

Fotheringham was obviously a gem of an addition on loan. And played a big part early in the season. But they haven't lost a game since he left. 

The spine of their team isn't all that different to last season; Currie, McGeachie, McLean (who missed most of last year injured tbf), Leitch, Carrick. They just shipped out some deadwood (Dylan Mackin, Ray Grant, Akeel Francis) and replaced them with upgrades.

[Silverton End]

54 minutes ago, Jan Vojáček said:

We might not want to lose sight of the fact that this team has been fairly good this season. Aye we could rip it up completely and start from scratch. That could work. But, imo, we're not too far off where we need to be. As our league position shows.

A bit more firepower (or Declan Byrne with some new legs) coupled with basically the same defence, goalkeeper and central midfield wouldn't have us a million miles away from the title squad wise. Whether Faz is the man to put a title winning season together is up for debate, but I don't think retaining a good chunk of this squad is too bad an idea.

I was just taking a look at Stirling's summer business. Now they finished mid-table last year (albeit with Darren Young only appointed in the December) and their summer business was:

That's some shrewd additions in key areas, but nothing you'd look at and go 'wow, they will win the league at a canter'.

Cammy Clark addressed their left-back issue and has been an excellent signing. Ross Davidson is a player that Darren Young knows, rates and trusts. Robert Thomson is a player I'd have at us in a heartbeat, but came off an injury hit and underwhelming year at Stenny. Cooper and Denholm are solid L2 squad players.

Fotheringham was obviously a gem of an addition on loan. And played a big part early in the season. But they haven't lost a game since he left. 

The spine of their team isn't all that different to last season; Currie, McGeachie, McLean (who missed most of last year injured tbf), Leitch, Carrick. They just shipped out some deadwood (Dylan Mackin, Ray Grant, Akeel Francis) and replaced them with upgrades.

Yeah, agree, the 1st half of the season we were playing decent attacking football, on the deck.

When injuries/suspension hit & form dipped Farrell resorted to hoofball like last season.

 

[FifeSons]

The only positive of our capitulation in the title race is that we've had time to pick ourselves up before the playoffs. Losing it on the last day, would've been a much worse way to go into them.

[Victor mcdade]

2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

Like I said, all about opinions here but for me if we want to go up and stay in that division then guys like Wilson aren't starters for me. 

Which average Arbroath players were transformed? Arbroath had a good group of players, good backing and (most crucially) a manager who knew what the f**k he was doing. Continuity works for Montrose because they have good backing and can afford to hold onto their much sought after manager and get really good loan deals in to supplement what they have. Our situation isn't remotely comparable as we have a fairly limited manager working with a fairly limited budget. Arbroath and Montrose were/are able to have guys like Tam O'Brien, Bobby Linn, Cammy Ballantyne, Rory McAllister on their books, all guys who could probably play at tier 2 level - who in our squad is good enough to play with us all the way to the Championship? Long? At a push Blair? Everyone else would be punted for a promotion push at the Champ, which is why this current clqmour for continuity doesn't make much sense to me - what is the end goal of this contuity? Suvival in League 1, being safe from League 2 trapdoor? Or do the club actually have ambitions to get back to the Championship?

You been on the cans Victor? MacLean shows up for about 4 games a season, not 4 in 5. 

Colin Hamilton and Ricky Little were bang average years ago in league 2.  Now regulars in the championship and missed out on the Premier league by a couple of points.

Whatley, gold and mckenna were all signed from junior/lowland teams.  Average players growing with confidence and experience?  Or just good signings?  McKenna expecially has been terrific.

[WattersIsGod]

1 hour ago, Jan Vojáček said:

We might not want to lose sight of the fact that this team has been fairly good this season. Aye we could rip it up completely and start from scratch. That could work. But, imo, we're not too far off where we need to be. As our league position shows.

A bit more firepower (or Declan Byrne with some new legs) coupled with basically the same defence, goalkeeper and central midfield wouldn't have us a million miles away from the title squad wise. Whether Faz is the man to put a title winning season together is up for debate, but I don't think retaining a good chunk of this squad is too bad an idea.

I was just taking a look at Stirling's summer business. Now they finished mid-table last year (albeit with Darren Young only appointed in the December) and their summer business was:

That's some shrewd additions in key areas, but nothing you'd look at and go 'wow, they will win the league at a canter'.

Cammy Clark addressed their left-back issue and has been an excellent signing. Ross Davidson is a player that Darren Young knows, rates and trusts. Robert Thomson is a player I'd have at us in a heartbeat, but came off an injury hit and underwhelming year at Stenny. Cooper and Denholm are solid L2 squad players.

Fotheringham was obviously a gem of an addition on loan. And played a big part early in the season. But they haven't lost a game since he left. 

The spine of their team isn't all that different to last season; Currie, McGeachie, McLean (who missed most of last year injured tbf), Leitch, Carrick. They just shipped out some deadwood (Dylan Mackin, Ray Grant, Akeel Francis) and replaced them with upgrades.

The recruitment was decent but unspectacular. It did address key areas though.

Left back had been a problem for a while and Clark has been mostly solid, 3 red cards aside.

Davidson, although not universally popular is a good foil for leitch with better positional discipline.

Carrick plays better not up on his own and getting him Thomson as a strike partner has been a masterstroke.

We've been luckier with injuries than previous seasons too 

Different team this season though, better than expected and shows that sometimes it is necessary to give a manager a full pre season for recruitment and training before we judge them.

[The Moonster]

27 minutes ago, Victor mcdade said:

Colin Hamilton and Ricky Little were bang average years ago in league 2.  Now regulars in the championship and missed out on the Premier league by a couple of points.

Whatley, gold and mckenna were all signed from junior/lowland teams.  Average players growing with confidence and experience?  Or just good signings?  McKenna expecially has been terrific.

Colin Hamilton was a good lower league player when he went back to Arbroath and had been playing in the Championship with Alloa the previous season. Ricky Little I'll give you, he has improved but for players to improve you need more than continuity, you need good coaching, a happy dressing room and a budget which lets you add quality around those who are coming from a lower level. I just don't think the Arbroath or Montrose situations are comparable to ours and trying to emulate them at our current time seems a bit fanciful.

[1320Lichtie]

13 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Colin Hamilton was a good lower league player when he went back to Arbroath and had been playing in the Championship with Alloa the previous season. Ricky Little I'll give you, he has improved but for players to improve you need more than continuity, you need good coaching, a happy dressing room and a budget which lets you add quality around those who are coming from a lower level. I just don't think the Arbroath or Montrose situations are comparable to ours and trying to emulate them at our current time seems a bit fanciful.

Ricky Little was in the Third division team of the year at Queens Park the 2 years before the season he signed for us.

There are 4 proper OGs we have in our side from the L2 days - Little / Hamilton / Gold / Linn - only one I would say who was average and has improved a lot is David Gold.

All the others have been excellent from day dot in my honest opinion. Colin Hamilton was outstanding for us when Sheerin was our manager and we were in League 1.