Sons' sorrow

[Pachyderm I]

i've said it before and I'll say it again... MON EH SONS!

[untitled00]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...series/scotfoot

Ian Murray and Willie Miller talk about Aberdeen V Dumbarton, and the games at the weekend.

Half decent listen.

[Silverton End]

Re-WDC

Heard they have already blocked any plans for Sons to erect a temporary stand for next season to accommodate Hearts/Rangers' large travelling support. Thereby denying a local club extra income.

There line is that for every 10 people a parking space is required.

[Jan Vojáček]

Re-WDC

Heard they have already blocked any plans for Sons to erect a temporary stand for next season to accommodate Hearts/Rangers' large travelling support. Thereby denying a local club extra income.

There line is that for every 10 people a parking space is required.

That's a lot of rubbish then isn't it,hardly any parking spaces outside Ayr United or Thistle despite the fact that those stadiums hold much more than the Rock.

E.T.A Dundee is the worst! Have to park a good few streets away.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Sonsteam of 08

[Silverton End]

That's a lot of rubbish then isn't it,hardly any parking spaces outside Ayr United or Thistle despite the fact that those stadiums hold much more than the Rock.

E.T.A Dundee is the worst! Have to park a good few streets away.

It certainly is.

I have this info on good authority, let's hope DFC press the Council on the issue.

There's plenty of space opposite the Stand at the Rock and across the road on the old Newton Bonded Warehouse site too.

You'd think our local Authority would be delighted for The Sons doing so well, or is the land worth something??

Poor show at any rate, but not surprising really.

[Jan Vojáček]

It certainly is.

I have this info on good authority, let's hope DFC press the Council on the issue.

There's plenty of space opposite the Stand at the Rock and across the road on the old Newton Bonded Warehouse site too.

You'd think our local Authority would be delighted for The Sons doing so well, or is the land worth something??

Poor show at any rate, but not surprising really.

I wonder if the SFA would let us do what Albion Rovers did in the cup and move the game to St Mirren Park? That would get one round the council as I would imagine the local businesses would be quite upset at all that potential business getting taken away.

Unreal really,one day they are apparently funding a new stadium for the Bankies and the next day they aren't allowing us a wee bit of temporary construction.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

Re-WDC

Heard they have already blocked any plans for Sons to erect a temporary stand for next season to accommodate Hearts/Rangers' large travelling support. Thereby denying a local club extra income.

There line is that for every 10 people a parking space is required.

That may well be the WDC take on things, but has the club actually pressed them on this and indeed is the club interested in pressing them on it ? Rightly or wrongly I sometimes get the impression that DFC officials are more in their comfort zone when they are issuing fatwas on where two-bob pennants can be hung rather than all the really important things which come with administering a professional football club in Scotland's second tier.

I would really hope that if we stay up then every effort will be made to maximise the possible benefits to DFC.

[PWL]

Was interesting to see the semi temporary stand Alloa have. A couple of portaloos and a snack van was all else that was required. Surely we have to see if similar is feasible once Championship status is secured.

[Howlin' Wilf]

The truth of the matter is that an initial application for a 3500 seat stadium in the current location was turned down on the issue of insufficient parking. The capacity is capped at 2000 by WDC. It's because the ground is situated in a cul de sac. Other grounds don't have this problem. I understand that the chances of getting the housebuilder who owns the old Newton Bond site to turn it over to the club as a car park are around the same as Vladimir Putin getting Julian Clary and Graham Norton to co-host the closing ceremony at Sochi. Also Historic Scotland, who administer the Rock/Castle would not countenance an erection(!) (Stand/terracing) facing the Rock and apprently this is just as enforcable as the planning regs.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

The truth of the matter is that an initial application for a 3500 seat stadium in the current location was turned down on the issue of insufficient parking. The capacity is capped at 2000 by WDC. It's because the ground is situated in a cul de sac. Other grounds don't have this problem. I understand that the chances of getting the housebuilder who owns the old Newton Bond site to turn it over to the club as a car park are around the same as Vladimir Putin getting Julian Clary and Graham Norton to co-host the closing ceremony at Sochi. Also Historic Scotland, who administer the Rock/Castle would not countenance an erection(!) (Stand/terracing) facing the Rock and apprently this is just as enforcable as the planning regs.

Perhaps more of a historical truth Wilf, if we're talking about the same WDC which recently rowed back under public outcry from a truly crazy scheme to site a secondary school in a cul-de-sac at Posties Park. That is a school with circa 1000 pupils and staff operating on 5 days out of 7, as opposed to a football ground of occasional, mostly weekend, use. In other words there is a compelling line of argument should the club choose to employ it, cul-de-sacs are now seemingly WDC approved, and in this instance the public are on message.

Secondly, I was told recently from a third-party with connections that the attitude of Historic Scotland is very much more relaxed than it was in 1999, as it has realised that in terms of visitor numbers and potential Dumbarton Rock is a very modest part of its portfolio. As such, they will not raise a cheep should DFC ever exit and builders thro up more white boxes to the very base of the Rock. So let's hear no more guff from them on temporary stands.

As for the old Blackburn site, no-one is suggesting the purchase of this land, more the lease of a current wasteland as a temporary car park. Are builders so flush that they wouldn't even discuss or consider such a proposition of a easy money ? Amazing. Planned properly this could even alleviate the cul-de-sac problem by siting the parking at the top end with access via Castle Road and egress eastwards from Castlegreen Street.

[Howlin' Wilf]

Perhaps more of a historical truth Wilf, if we're talking about the same WDC which recently rowed back under public outcry from a truly crazy scheme to site a secondary school in a cul-de-sac at Posties Park. That is a school with circa 1000 pupils and staff operating on 5 days out of 7, as opposed to a football ground of occasional, mostly weekend, use. In other words there is a compelling line of argument should the club choose to employ it, cul-de-sacs are now seemingly WDC approved, and in this instance the public are on message.

Secondly, I was told recently from a third-party with connections that the attitude of Historic Scotland is very much more relaxed than it was in 1999, as it has realised that in terms of visitor numbers and potential Dumbarton Rock is a very modest part of its portfolio. As such, they will not raise a cheep should DFC ever exit and builders thro up more white boxes to the very base of the Rock. So let's hear no more guff from them on temporary stands.

As for the old Blackburn site, no-one is suggesting the purchase of this land, more the lease of a current wasteland as a temporary car park. Are builders so flush that they wouldn't even discuss or consider such a proposition of a easy money ? Amazing. Planned properly this could even alleviate the cul-de-sac problem by siting the parking at the top end with access via Castle Road and egress eastwards from Castlegreen Street.

Oh that it were so simple. White boxes have never been a problem to Historic Scotland whereas the stadium was/is anathema. Only severe and sustained pressure from Scottish Enterprise and the local MP of the time managed to overcome that to even have the reduced project built. But respect to your third party for penetrating an organisation so secretive and arcane that a reply to a straight written question can take several months and not contain an answer.

To convert the 'wasteland' i.e. land with permission to build houses, would require another application for change of use to convert it from a house building site to a car park. How likely do you think it would be a) For the house builder to agree to this and b) The owners of the white boxes in Castle Rd (or indeed the residents of Castlegreen St) not to object en masse?

OK3, you know the Chief Exec of DFC as well as I do. In a recent conversation with him he struck me as a man who was keen to embark on any scheme which would earn extra income for the club. He has I believe explored this very issue with the cooncil applying his considerable expertise in planning matters and concluded that it is a non starter.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

Oh that it were so simple. White boxes have never been a problem to Historic Scotland whereas the stadium was/is anathema. Only severe and sustained pressure from Scottish Enterprise and the local MP of the time managed to overcome that to even have the reduced project built. But respect to your third party for penetrating an organisation so secretive and arcane that a reply to a straight written question can take several months and not contain an answer.

To convert the 'wasteland' i.e. land with permission to build houses, would require another application for change of use to convert it from a house building site to a car park. How likely do you think it would be a) For the house builder to agree to this and b) The owners of the white boxes in Castle Rd (or indeed the residents of Castlegreen St) not to object en masse?

OK3, you know the Chief Exec of DFC as well as I do. In a recent conversation with him he struck me as a man who was keen to embark on any scheme which would earn extra income for the club. He has I believe explored this very issue with the cooncil applying his considerable expertise in planning matters and concluded that it is a non starter.

It’s a very good response Wilf and of course I was being rather disingenuous in my post.

There are a couple of howevers, however, and I’m pretty sure that HS would not offer the same level of hostility as they did initially; how could they given that visitors to the Rock now look out over a derelict and crumbling red brick monolith surrounded by waste ground ? A piece of waste ground in fact that has recently been a temporary car park with no whiff of Planning Consent, now just how did our visitors manage that ??

I’m also still curious how fellow cul-de-sac dwellers East Fife managed their temporary capacity arrangements, but no matter, what is really important is the statement in your last paragraph that the DFC Chief Exec has(literally) explored the avenues on the club’s behalf. If the definitive outcome is that we cannot install temporary additional capacity then that should effectively end any speculation on the subject, here or elsewhere, and I will graciously concede.

And fair do’s to the club for pursuing the matter, at least we now know that they did.

[Howlin' Wilf]

It’s a very good response Wilf and of course I was being rather disingenuous in my post.

There are a couple of howevers, however, and I’m pretty sure that HS would not offer the same level of hostility as they did initially; how could they given that visitors to the Rock now look out over a derelict and crumbling red brick monolith surrounded by waste ground ? A piece of waste ground in fact that has recently been a temporary car park with no whiff of Planning Consent, now just how did our visitors manage that ??

I’m also still curious how fellow cul-de-sac dwellers East Fife managed their temporary capacity arrangements, but no matter, what is really important is the statement in your last paragraph that the DFC Chief Exec has(literally) explored the avenues on the club’s behalf. If the definitive outcome is that we cannot install temporary additional capacity then that should effectively end any speculation on the subject, here or elsewhere, and I will graciously concede.

And fair do’s to the club for pursuing the matter, at least we now know that they did.

East Fife's ground isn't in a cul de sac similar to ours at all. We are at the end of a single access/exit road, whereas EF is part of the old harbour and docks which have many accesses and exits to the main road. I don't know the finer details about the car park opposite the old bottling plant but I think you'll find that it has consent as a car park where the council is involved.

[The Moonster]

Can't we just be like everyone else and send them a small brown envelope with some purple bits of paper inside? They'll fire up some stands no problem.

[Nowhereman]

Oh that it were so simple. White boxes have never been a problem to Historic Scotland whereas the stadium was/is anathema. Only severe and sustained pressure from Scottish Enterprise and the local MP of the time managed to overcome that to even have the reduced project built. But respect to your third party for penetrating an organisation so secretive and arcane that a reply to a straight written question can take several months and not contain an answer.

To convert the 'wasteland' i.e. land with permission to build houses, would require another application for change of use to convert it from a house building site to a car park. How likely do you think it would be a) For the house builder to agree to this and b) The owners of the white boxes in Castle Rd (or indeed the residents of Castlegreen St) not to object en masse?

OK3, you know the Chief Exec of DFC as well as I do. In a recent conversation with him he struck me as a man who was keen to embark on any scheme which would earn extra income for the club. He has I believe explored this very issue with the cooncil applying his considerable expertise in planning matters and concluded that it is a non starter.

Just out of interest what was the actual logic behind Historic Scotland's objection to a stand facing the Rock. And presumably this would only be an objection ? Or can their objections overrule the planning authority ?

[Sons FC]

If the issue is restricted only to parking in a cul de sac, surely it is no beyond even the whit of Dumbarton Council to think around that, such as closing Castle Road at Castlegreen Street, making the buses park on the Common and then either instigating a one way system or letting the traffic take case of itself, or similar.

[Howlin' Wilf]

Just out of interest what was the actual logic behind Historic Scotland's objection to a stand facing the Rock. And presumably this would only be an objection ? Or can their objections overrule the planning authority ?

I'm not sure that the words logic and Historic Scotland belong together. I would say their objections are akin to the regulations on listed buildings in that they have a very strong influence on planning decisions. The problem here is that the decision was made in 1999 and restrictions remain. Any lifting of restrictions would involve renewed planning processes. With so much additional housing having already been built and with more to follow on the Bond site, thus putting even more pressure on available parking space and more traffic using the road, it's hard to see that a more relaxed view would be taken.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Howlin' Wilf

[Howlin' Wilf]

If the issue is restricted only to parking in a cul de sac, surely it is no beyond even the whit of Dumbarton Council to think around that, such as closing Castle Road at Castlegreen Street, making the buses park on the Common and then either instigating a one way system or letting the traffic take case of itself, or similar.

I can't see WDC instigating traffic orders for football matches and it's hard to see how your suggestion would improve matters. For one thing you'd be barring cars from parking in the stadium and therefore transferring the parking problem to Morrisons, St James and the town centre. For another you'd be denying access to the residents.

[sons'r'us]

The truth of the matter is that an initial application for a 3500 seat stadium in the current location was turned down on the issue of insufficient parking. The capacity is capped at 2000 by WDC. It's because the ground is situated in a cul de sac. Other grounds don't have this problem. I understand that the chances of getting the housebuilder who owns the old Newton Bond site to turn it over to the club as a car park are around the same as Vladimir Putin getting Julian Clary and Graham Norton to co-host the closing ceremony at Sochi. Also Historic Scotland, who administer the Rock/Castle would not countenance an erection(!) (Stand/terracing) facing the Rock and apprently this is just as enforcable as the planning regs.

Wilf i don't think the size of the stadium had anything to do with wdc turning down an application of a 3500 seater stadium. It was more to do with the fact we didn't have money for it and had to reduce it to 2000. In those days we were languishing in the lower end of the 3rd division and not being able to deliver a 3500 seater stand was less of an issue.

[Howlin' Wilf]

Wilf i don't think the size of the stadium had anything to do with wdc turning down an application of a 3500 seater stadium. It was more to do with the fact we didn't have money for it and had to reduce it to 2000. In those days we were languishing in the lower end of the 3rd division and not being able to deliver a 3500 seater stand was less of an issue.

That was certainly a factor in the amended application. However the wisdom from those involved at the time was that the 3500 application wouldn't have been passed anyway. Certainly not now with all the housing development completed and pending.