Sons' sorrow

[C'mon_the_Sons]

5 minutes ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Also, why did he come in without a tie on, go to the loo and then wrap his tie around his neck but not actually do it up? That was very weird.

Maybe he thought it would appeal to the 'common man'??

[albundy]

My thoughts on the Ian and roddy show.

Brabco's main selling point was that the stadium move is our chance to push the club forward as a full time side and realise our potential as a club. In Ian's words it's about ambition.

Although I believe brabco could financially pull off the stadium build with some luck, there are holes all over the place with what happens afterwards.

1.brabco will own the (13.5m) stadium. Lifetime lease or not, there goes any security we have.

2. The self sufficient operating of the club on a day to day basis is based on largely variable sources, such as:

Income from pitches, which could be reduced by frequent flooding
Championship teams with a large away support, assuming we are still in the championship
Numerous weddings and functions that there will be a rush in bookings for over local venues
Office space in the middle of nowhere that will be rented out.

In summary, this smacks of a business deal for a return in investment for brabco and not for football reasons as they don't stack up.

And kudos to okiii for being the only punter to ruffle the well oiled responses.

[BallochSonsFan]

It was a very good meeting tonight. Some searching questions were asked and fans are right to push for answers. There is a hell of a lot that could go wrong with this and nobody really knows to what extent this will incur risk on the club or what position we'll be in tomorrow, next year, 5 years down the line or beyond.

Ian Wilson will have left tonight's meeting absolutely certain of one thing - the Dumbarton support want to engage with this and will push for only 1 thing: the best interests of Dumbarton Football Club. We won't simply be bystanders watching whilst they get on with whatever they want to do.

[Nowhereman]

If the new stadium is to be owned by Brabco what happens to the money that DFC get for the sale of the Rock. Where does it go?

[O'Kelly Isley III]

Straight off, I don't doubt Brabco's motives or intentions as much as I doubt their ability to convert their vision as described into hard reality.

At times this evening I had to remind myself that I hadn't strayed into a timeshare presentation, such was the unfurling of both the slides and the assuring rhetoric.  As I've always feared however, Brabco has been taking the pulse (steady...) across various parties and locations, but they have forgotten to face that very same hard reality by considering the local factors which will simply not match their projections.  Weddings is only the start of it, and the constant lapses into boilerplate business-speak by Ian Wilson was dispiriting. 

The DFC crowds; 'build it and they will come' someone once said.  Not in any significantly increased numbers they won't as long as the admission tariff is what it is in an economically depressed area, and the DFC Board continues to expect the public to roll up as opposed to going out and attracting them.  It's hardly rocket science.

Much was made of bar takings, catering and conferences as well as weddings  - who was the bright spark who decided to franchise out all of this at the current stadium, generating virtually hee-haw money in the process ?

I was also annoyed by the gushing references to the prudent stewardship of the club by the current Board.  I don't have any issues with the Directors and I'm on the record here as having congratulated them on the last five seasons but it all smacked of Brabco trying to make a virtue out of the fact that they have invested next to nothing in the football club over their tenure.  Their eye is on one prize and one prize only, hence my reference to the grand vision being presented and DFC Directors dipping into their own pockets - bizarre, until you think about it.

One of the game-changers here is the growing feeling that WDC and others want us out of Castle Road.  I very much expect Brabco's plans to be approved and then we are really entering walk-the-walk territory.  So be it, but I would like to think that, perhaps for the first time, tonight provided Brabco with a much more critical and passionate dissemination of their plans. 

[sonsism]

Was there any point in Mr Hosie being there? He said about 4 things and was rude to pretty much everyone he interacted with.  Bit of a p***k if you ask me.

On paper the new stadium alongside the extra pitches look great but it's too good to be true.  These men have kept themselves in the shadows for years and now finally come out and ask us all to trust them when we know next to nothing about them or their vision. Didn't like how Ian Wilson kept making a point of them being able to build houses on the current stadium whenever they liked. 

Some great questions asked folks! Would have liked for us to get right into Brabco and Mr Wilson's taxes but it was definitely more important to get every bit of detail about the new stadium as possible.

Personally I am very concerned at the outcome of this proposed stadium - I can't imagine not having a Dumbarton team to support.  That being said, I'm also very optimistic about the power of the Sonstrust and here's hoping we can push the 400 member mark at some point in the near future!

[albundy]

If the new stadium is to be owned by Brabco what happens to the money that DFC get for the sale of the Rock. Where does it go?

Brabco's coffers. Young's transition for dfc will be self funding and turnkey. Although we could left paying for two grounds until the rock site is sold and although Ian did suggest that was not desirable, he did not say who would foot the bill (presumably dfc).

[albundy]

Was there any point in Mr Hosie being there? He said about 4 things and was rude to pretty much everyone he interacted with.  Bit of a p***k if you ask me.

I think he was supposed to be the "one of our own" on the brabco board to help get us onside. I don't question he and his family's support for the club over the years but like you say he came across very defensive/rude.

[Here Come The Sons]

Didn't like how Ian Wilson kept making a point of them being able to build houses on the current stadium whenever they liked. 

They can't. The golden share prevents this. I think what he meant was they could build the houses that they already have planning permission for in the corner of the car park facing on to Castle Road.

Considering that Wilson appears to know bugger all about football, maybe he thought that an untied club tie was the same as a scarf. After all, he thinks we have been in the Championship for a couple of years and doesn't know the difference between Dundee and Dundee Utd.

If he thinks that we would be gullible enough to fall for his full time premier league fantasy he doesn't have a clue about who his audience were tonight.

Comparing an Edinburgh property transaction to a white elephant office development on the outskirts of Renton, one of the most deprived areas of the country, beggars belief.

We need to challenge the financial viability of all aspects of these plans at every stage and ensure that if we do move we remain a club which owns its own stadium as we do now.

Hopefully the Trust's investigations into the provisions of the golden share will demonstrate that this instrument can block the suggested change in the club's status from owner to tenant which had not (to my knowledge) been mentioned before tonight.

We need to keep a close eye on these characters.

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, Nowhereman said:

If the new stadium is to be owned by Brabco what happens to the money that DFC get for the sale of the Rock. Where does it go?

Brabco's pocket.

It's all now very simple for me - if the club don't own the stadium there is no way I can support the move. 

[DumbartonTheSons]

A very interesting evening, largely in part due to the probing questions asked by those there which was good to see.

I can't say I thought Ian came across very well. His 'if you're not ambitious, get tae' type of attitude was less than endearing.

He talked a decent enough game as you'd expect for a PR charm offensive, although there wasn't as much charm as I'd expect for such a forum.

The financing of it still doesn't add up to me, and the fact that we wouldn't own the new stadium just reinforces my stance that I'm still very much opposed to the move.

It's easy to make it look decent on paper and Roddy actually seemed very genuine and made a decent pitch, but it's the intentions behind it all from Branco, the funding and the contingency plans to ensure the club's future that are still great cause for concern.

For those who believe or are interested in coincidences, and it's only coincidental of course, that the club Ian supports would appear to have shown the 'ambition' that Ian rattled on about in a very odd manner, moved to a large stadium without concrete (no pun intended) welfare plans for the club and now they seemingly don't have their off-field problems to seek...

[O'Kelly Isley III]

We are correct to be sceptical but at this stage that should not stray into open hostility, as Brabco are now likely to gallop full tilt in pursuit of their aims and may still be amenable to having supporter/community involvement at a closer level as things proceed.

It was an evening that threw up a lot to digest, not least that the whole shebang would appear to rely very heavily on Sons retaining their Championship status; future bar takings from Forfar fans would be much less than Hibs, for example, so it will be fascinating to see if Stevie Aitken is given funding in January to strengthen a squad which is competing but has a very real chance of dropping a Division.

Brabco has no real track record of investment in the football side so that will be an early indicator of whether they do intend to 'walk the walk'.  I suspect that in their hearts they know that the trying to 'sell' this development will be much, much harder down the leagues and the next six months will be absolutely critical for us all.   

[BallochSonsFan]

There were certainly red flags last night. For a so called Coventry fan to believe that it's acceptable for Dumbarton to not own our own stadium when his other team down the road spent 4 years playing in Northampton because they couldn't agree terms with the Ricoh Arena owners is just baffling. He can promise us lifetime tenancies for peppercorn rents all he wants. He can claim that it'll be legally watertight. Tell that to the tenant farmers who were given lifetime tenancy rights by the Scottish government. The land owners took the case to court, won and are now in the process of demanding increased rents from their tenants or enforcing evictions on them. Brabco can sell up a day after moving and any so called guarantees they give us about our use of the ground become absolutely worthless.

I thought Wilson misjudged his tone at times. To challenge the supporters that anybody who didnt back his plans for the Renton Road shangri la was effectively consigning the club to a future of poverty and misery was "brave". It's to the credit of those in attendance that nobody took that particular bait. Ultimately there are still far more questions than answers with this proposal and whilst we absolutely need to see change at the club, Ian Wilson didnt do a particularly good job of selling his view of that change.

Despite that I'm not writing the move off. Changes can be made that will improve the confidence fans can have in the project.

If they're willing to listen to us and engage with us.

Brabco need to be honest and accept that whats on paper won't be whats delivered, even if everything went amazingly according to plan. The difference between whats promised and what we potentially end up with will be key in determining whether its good or bad for the club.

[Bankies Alive]

From owning your stadium to becoming a tennant doesnt sound like much of a deal to me!

From an outsiders point of view you guys dont need a new stadium,so why jeopordise the future of the club by chasing some pipe dream by people who are only interested in lining their own pockets.

Hopefully the golden share will stop anything from happening and someone with the club at heart will buy it from the Brabconians!

 

[albundy]

It's easy to make it look decent on paper and Roddy actually seemed very genuine and made a decent pitch, but it's the intentions behind it all from Branco, the funding and the contingency plans to ensure the club's future that are still great cause for concern.

Roddy is genuine, he is carrying out the bidding of his paymaster (brabco) but doesn't really have an agenda of his own and appears to be honest and professional.

I had a thought last night, as it stands the plans are a no go. If brabco were to change their strategy and deliver a scales down version of the new ground but owned by dfc, would the plans be more palatable?

[The Moonster]

It just doesn't add up for me. They said they'll take the profit from the sale of the current site, they'll own all of the new stadium and facitilities but the club will run it and take any profit loss from those facilities? Why, if you were Brabco, do you want to hold ownership of that if you won't make any money from it "until you die"? Simple, because they know they could potentially charge us rent in the future should they need to. That or him telling us the club will see the profit is a lie.

I've heard all I need to from Wilson and if I'm honest he's not the sort of guy I want on the DFC board. Morality seems to be a big problem for him and I feel extremely uneasy about him leading this project.

[Homer Thompson]

All seems a bit suss looking in from the outside.

Hope it all turns out ok. It would be awful to see Dumbarton in trouble

[The Moonster]

9 minutes ago, Mr X said:

All seems a bit suss looking in from the outside.

Hope it all turns out ok. It would be awful to see Dumbarton in trouble

Unfortunately even if the stadium move doesn't go ahead we have a potential period of trouble coming up. We've neglected maintaining our current stadium in order to help justify a move, if we stay where we are we've got a lot of work to do, not least getting our floodlights up to the required standard. It also leaves our owners with a very limited choice, having seen their pot of gold turn into a pot of shite.

 

[Homer Thompson]

20 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Unfortunately even if the stadium move doesn't go ahead we have a potential period of trouble coming up. We've neglected maintaining our current stadium in order to help justify a move, if we stay where we are we've got a lot of work to do, not least getting our floodlights up to the required standard. It also leaves our owners with a very limited choice, having seen their pot of gold turn into a pot of shite.

 

Ooft, thats not good either.

I have to say, though, having been their many times its in a much better state than plenty of other grounds. What else needs done apart from the floodlights - which would be a fair cost on its own, of course

[Silverton End]

57 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Ooft, thats not good either.

I have to say, though, having been their many times its in a much better state than plenty of other grounds. What else needs done apart from the floodlights - which would be a fair cost on its own, of course

The dip, at the away end of the pitch, near the river, where it used to be a Dock within Denny's Shipyard, it's sinking. The place generally needs a right good jetwash too.