Sons' sorrow

[The Moonster]

17 minutes ago, sergie's no1 fan said:

We can't exactly moan because we charge £20 at this level which is way too dear.

Where does it stop though, will teams be charging £25 in a couple of years time? 

If fans keep going to games, yes.

I personally think the league should be capping prices for each division but there's very little chance of that because clubs want to keep control of that.

[pleslie99]

The prices are ridiculous we all know that and obviously we all wish our board made them cheaper. this is going to take up every match thread we have this year, I reckon the Falkirk bumpkins will moan the most. Do our board read this and feel the anger from the fans? Would be interesting to see their take on things if they do

[Howlin' Wilf]

The problem is that the running costs of clubs is high and that admission prices are the main income that clubs have. If a DFC player is getting say £300 pw, without any other costs being taken into consideration, that's thirty people through the gate at full price, just for that one wage (based on a home game once a fortnight). We had 590 v Inverness, the vast majority of whom weren't paying near full price. A home game at that attendance, doesn't even come near to covering the wages.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

The problem is that the running costs of clubs is high and that admission prices are the main income that clubs have. If a DFC player is getting say £300 pw, without any other costs being taken into consideration, that's thirty people through the gate at full price, just for that one wage (based on a home game once a fortnight). We had 590 v Inverness, the vast majority of whom weren't paying near full price. A home game at that attendance, doesn't even come near to covering the wages.

If paying players £300 a week means we need to charge 20/22 quid to get in I'd rather we didn't pay players £300 a week.

We've managed it fine up until now so what makes this season different?

[Jan Vojáček]

If paying players £300 a week means we need to charge 20/22 quid to get in I'd rather we didn't pay players £300 a week.

We've managed it fine up until now so what makes this season different?

I suspect (and this is guesswork) that it's more down to the lack of away supports this season. Last week we had under 600 for ICT and the same for Brechin. Last season we didn't have a single league attendance lower than 600. Taking away the guaranteed away end sell out of Hibs, and Ayr who bring a decent number, and replacing them with Livingston, Brechin and Caley will leave us down significantly on previous years. I guess that is the reasoning behind it.

The price is still vile though and, whilst I understand we'd be unlikely to attract the numbers necessary if we reduced it, I cannot blame any Saints fans for being seething and boycotting it.

[BallochSonsFan]

20 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

 

If paying players £300 a week means we need to charge 20/22 quid to get in I'd rather we didn't pay players £300 a week.

We've managed it fine up until now so what makes this season different?

We go down that road and we're on a one way ticket to League Two.

Just to throw some hypothetical numbers out there...

If we're running with a squad of 20 players and paying an average of £300 a week then our wage bill is £6000 per week. You can add in the wages of the manager, assistant, physio, kit man, secretary etc. It's not unreasonable to assume that the Sons's wage bill is closer to the £7,500 a week mark. Thats before we meet the costs of keeping the doors open and the lights on.

Whats our average profit margin from tickets, if we include cut price kids tickets and season ticket discounts? If it's £10 per person per game then we're looking at 750 people through the door just to cover our wages. And we don't only pay players when we've got a home game so the away games we're still paying our £7,500 wages but without any revenue from ticket sales to contribute.

Have we really managed fine up until now? We pretty much live hand to mouth as a football club. Sure we're not buried under a mountain of debt, but I do wonder whether the club could deal with an unexpected bill if it suddenly fell payable tomorrow? There's no rainy day fund. We operate on the margin between financial viability and financial difficulty. Did we manage fine in previous years? Was the division more geared towards bigger away crowds whose ticket sales could offer us some much needed income? Was sponsorship worth more? Prize money? What decisions did the board need to make that fans aren't privy to in order to give the illusion of managing fine?

If the argument is that we should reduce our playing budget to reduce prices and accept the inevitable relegation to League One or Two then it's not one I can agree with. Do we really want to go back to playing the likes of Clyde, Cowdenbeath, Annan or Stranraer, Albion Rovers and Stenny? It'll happen eventually - we can't hold out as relegation battlers forever in this division and one day we will be relegated, but it's not something I'd actively want for the club.

I don't like that we charge so much for tier 2 football at Dumbarton. Is the alternative we really want to see to simply give in, accept relegation to the bottom end of Scottish football and to pay a more affordable price for turgid bottom tier games?

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

We go down that road and we're on a one way ticket to League Two.
Just to throw some hypothetical numbers out there...
If we're running with a squad of 20 players and paying an average of £300 a week then our wage bill is £6000 per week. You can add in the wages of the manager, assistant, physio, kit man, secretary etc. It's not unreasonable to assume that the Sons's wage bill is closer to the £7,500 a week mark. Thats before we meet the costs of keeping the doors open and the lights on.
Whats our average profit margin from tickets, if we include cut price kids tickets and season ticket discounts? If it's £10 per person per game then we're looking at 750 people through the door just to cover our wages. And we don't only pay players when we've got a home game so the away games we're still paying our £7,500 wages but without any revenue from ticket sales to contribute.
Have we really managed fine up until now? We pretty much live hand to mouth as a football club. Sure we're not buried under a mountain of debt, but I do wonder whether the club could deal with an unexpected bill if it suddenly fell payable tomorrow? There's no rainy day fund. We operate on the margin between financial viability and financial difficulty. Did we manage fine in previous years? Was the division more geared towards bigger away crowds whose ticket sales could offer us some much needed income? Was sponsorship worth more? Prize money? What decisions did the board need to make that fans aren't privy to in order to give the illusion of managing fine?
If the argument is that we should reduce our playing budget to reduce prices and accept the inevitable relegation to League One or Two then it's not one I can agree with. Do we really want to go back to playing the likes of Clyde, Cowdenbeath, Annan or Stranraer, Albion Rovers and Stenny? It'll happen eventually - we can't hold out as relegation battlers forever in this division and one day we will be relegated, but it's not something I'd actively want for the club.
I don't like that we charge so much for tier 2 football at Dumbarton. Is the alternative we really want to see to simply give in, accept relegation to the bottom end of Scottish football and to pay a more affordable price for turgid bottom tier games?

One way ticket to League 2? Not sure I agree with that unless we start paying 30 quid a week. I don't see why charging reasonable prices and paying reasonable wages would all of a sudden see us festering and playing turgid football (our current brand of football is hardly free flowing).

You are clearly someone who can easily afford to attend. Others aren't. I'm pretty sure they'd rather be able to afford attending matches over being priced out simply because of the league we're in. I'm not in a position where I absolutely can't afford it, I'm choosing to invest in some other things some Saturdays because I can't justify paying that cash for football, but there are plenty out there with kids or struggling with work who have no chance of attending this season.

We're losing supporters due to this and you only have to have a browse through our numerous social media channels to see that we are becoming a complete laughing stock in the eyes of many. Is farting about the arse of Championship the most important thing? Not for me it isn't but each to their own.

[BallochSonsFan]

17 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

 

One way ticket to League 2? Not sure I agree with that unless we start paying 30 quid a week. I don't see why charging reasonable prices and paying reasonable wages would all of a sudden see us festering and playing turgid football (our current brand of football is hardly free flowing).

You are clearly someone who can easily afford to attend. Others aren't. I'm pretty sure they'd rather be able to afford attending matches over being priced out simply because of the league we're in. I'm not in a position where I absolutely can't afford it, I'm choosing to invest in some other things some Saturdays because I can't justify paying that cash for football, but there are plenty out there with kids or struggling with work who have no chance of attending this season.

We're losing supporters due to this and you only have to have a browse through our numerous social media channels to see that we are becoming a complete laughing stock in the eyes of many. Is farting about the arse of Championship the most important thing? Not for me it isn't but each to their own.

 

Its not easy.

I can afford to attend because I don't spend money elsewhere. I can go to football, concerts and hockey because I don't go on many other nights out, don't pay a mortgage because I don't own my own home (still live with family), paid my car off after 4 years and have no money to change it and generally try to cut costs elsewhere.

I'd go to Sons games regardless of where we are in the heirarchy of Scottish football. That doesnt mean that I'd be eager to see us at the bottom simply to be able to reduce ticket prices. Given the massive differences between SPFL/SFA income at the different tiers of Scottish football, it's arguable that relegation wouldn't necessarily lead to lower ticket prices. Is relegation worth it to save £2 or £3 a week? Are we ever going to be in the position to charge £12 or £15 for football? Not any time soon I'd wager.

Ticket prices are an issue. If they were lower then we'd probably be able to retain more of our existing fan base. Some people are being forced out of football because of ticket prices and that's always going to be something that's unacceptable. Unfortunately when we have home gates of 500 fans, we're kind of forced into charging the money we do. If we were playing league one football, would the price be significantly cheaper? Ayr United are paying Andy Geggan around £400 a week, In the 3rd tier of Scottish football.

I know there's a serious amount of distrust and ridicule regarding Brabco and the plans to move to Youngs Farm and I might share a lot of them. Unfortunately when they tell us that we're not making enough money at our current home to really be financially secure then they're telling us a cold hard truth. The only way to make football more affordable is to attract new fans - something that price has an influence over but probably isnt the defining issue - or find a way to make money beyond match day. The level of football we're playing at will maybe make a couple of quid difference but  beyond that?

 

[Howlin' Wilf]

We go down that road and we're on a one way ticket to League Two.
Just to throw some hypothetical numbers out there...
If we're running with a squad of 20 players and paying an average of £300 a week then our wage bill is £6000 per week. You can add in the wages of the manager, assistant, physio, kit man, secretary etc. It's not unreasonable to assume that the Sons's wage bill is closer to the £7,500 a week mark. Thats before we meet the costs of keeping the doors open and the lights on.
Whats our average profit margin from tickets, if we include cut price kids tickets and season ticket discounts? If it's £10 per person per game then we're looking at 750 people through the door just to cover our wages. And we don't only pay players when we've got a home game so the away games we're still paying our £7,500 wages but without any revenue from ticket sales to contribute.
Have we really managed fine up until now? We pretty much live hand to mouth as a football club. Sure we're not buried under a mountain of debt, but I do wonder whether the club could deal with an unexpected bill if it suddenly fell payable tomorrow? There's no rainy day fund. We operate on the margin between financial viability and financial difficulty. Did we manage fine in previous years? Was the division more geared towards bigger away crowds whose ticket sales could offer us some much needed income? Was sponsorship worth more? Prize money? What decisions did the board need to make that fans aren't privy to in order to give the illusion of managing fine?
If the argument is that we should reduce our playing budget to reduce prices and accept the inevitable relegation to League One or Two then it's not one I can agree with. Do we really want to go back to playing the likes of Clyde, Cowdenbeath, Annan or Stranraer, Albion Rovers and Stenny? It'll happen eventually - we can't hold out as relegation battlers forever in this division and one day we will be relegated, but it's not something I'd actively want for the club.
I don't like that we charge so much for tier 2 football at Dumbarton. Is the alternative we really want to see to simply give in, accept relegation to the bottom end of Scottish football and to pay a more affordable price for turgid bottom tier games?

Pretty much dead on. In my calculations, I referred to, but didn't include, other overheads. Offering players contracts is like any competitive tendering process, if you don't offer within the ballpark figure, you are nowhere and you don't get what you are offering for. The slight advantage that Sons will have over other part-time clubs is that there's the carrot of playing in a higher league. That however, is a marginal advantage. Of course it is difficult for those fans dealing with tight budgets and I don't know how you deal with that. Reducing prices is a very difficult thing to fund.
Let's say that the average admission price (after adjustment for season tickets and concessions) is £15. A 500 crowd then nets £7500 as you say. To reduce the average charge to £12 would mean having to attract an extra 125 fans to generate the same income. To reduce it to £10 then would rely on attracting a 50% increase in the crowd to 750, an additional 250 punters. If you drop to £10 and only attract an extra 150 people the club has lost £1000 to do that.

[sonsanorak]

Did we complain about playing cowden, forfar, albion rovers and annan when we won the 3rd or were promoted out the 2nd?

 

The long term survival of the club and recruitment of new support is a bigger issue than what league we're in.

 

Pricing is the first barrier to attracting people to the game. Whether its ticket prices or food costs, paying £40+ for a parent and child going to the game will be enough to put most off.

 

 

 

 

[BallochSonsFan]

26 minutes ago, sonsanorak said:

Did we complain about playing cowden, forfar, albion rovers and annan when we won the 3rd or were promoted out the 2nd?

 

The long term survival of the club and recruitment of new support is a bigger issue than what league we're in.

 

Pricing is the first barrier to attracting people to the game. Whether its ticket prices or food costs, paying £40+ for a parent and child going to the game will be enough to put most off.

 

 

 

 

Price is a barrier.

If it's the biggest barrier then it's a no-brainer: Reduce the price and watch people flock to support the Sons.

Were our attendances significantly higher when we were charging £15 a game? Our home crowd has probably been no bigger than 650 or there abouts for the past decade. We'll have taken that many people to Aberdeen away in the Scottish Cup a few years ago.

And did we complain about playing Cowden,Forfar, Albion Rovers or Annan when we won the 3rd and were promoted from the 2nd? Clearly not because we left them behind when we were promoted. I'd ask another question - how happy were we when we spent years in the bottom tier of Scottish football before we won the 3rd division? Were they really halcyon times?

Edited September 28, 2017 by BallochSonsFan

[George Parr]

Can't say I'm on board with the Championship football at any cost argument - £22 is clearly excessive. 

Simply put we're in danger of pricing supporters out the game, if it's not happening already.  Is it worth being in this division if no one can afford to support it?

 

[pleslie99]

One way ticket to League 2? Not sure I agree with that unless we start paying 30 quid a week. I don't see why charging reasonable prices and paying reasonable wages would all of a sudden see us festering and playing turgid football (our current brand of football is hardly free flowing).

You are clearly someone who can easily afford to attend. Others aren't. I'm pretty sure they'd rather be able to afford attending matches over being priced out simply because of the league we're in. I'm not in a position where I absolutely can't afford it, I'm choosing to invest in some other things some Saturdays because I can't justify paying that cash for football, but there are plenty out there with kids or struggling with work who have no chance of attending this season.

We're losing supporters due to this and you only have to have a browse through our numerous social media channels to see that we are becoming a complete laughing stock in the eyes of many. Is farting about the arse of Championship the most important thing? Not for me it isn't but each to their own.

Totally agree with this.

I'm not in a position either where I can't afford it but I choose not to pay £20 to watch football. Last Saturday for example I had a rare weekend off, I really wanted to go watch the sons v ICT but couldn't justify £20 plus beer and pie money a week before payday. Went to the common and watched the accies in a 4-3 thriller.
I will go to Stranraer at £10, proper reasonable pricing. Might even take the boy! This won't happen in the league at £20 a pop, full stop. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

This thread has become tramlined on pricing , and whilst that is obviously a deal-breaker to many people, it is not the whole story.  Are we a club which is welcoming and actively tries to sell itself in the community ?  Do we have a BOD which has ideas, imagination and vision as to how we augment the football-related income ?  Do we suffer from a top-down decision-making culture - the Chairman's baton changes every few years but things remain pretty much as they are, with the default mindset being one of a simmering siege mentality  ?  Does the apparently dysfunctional ownership of DFC and the chronic lack of investment leave that same BOD in an impossible position ?  Does anyone at DFC even acknowledge that we are losing support ?

And finally, and perhaps crucially, statistics generally show that more people will turn up to see attacking football in the divisions below than want to see their team under the cosh on a regular basis in a higher level.  Like most things, an all too familiar routine induces boredom which leads to disinterest, and once fans are gone it's hard to get them back - at any price.

[Howlin' Wilf]

1 hour ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

This thread has become tramlined on pricing , and whilst that is obviously a deal-breaker to many people, it is not the whole story.  Are we a club which is welcoming and actively tries to sell itself in the community ?  Do we have a BOD which has ideas, imagination and vision as to how we augment the football-related income ?  Do we suffer from a top-down decision-making culture - the Chairman's baton changes every few years but things remain pretty much as they are, with the default mindset being one of a simmering siege mentality  ?  Does the apparently dysfunctional ownership of DFC and the chronic lack of investment leave that same BOD in an impossible position ?  Does anyone at DFC even acknowledge that we are losing support ?

And finally, and perhaps crucially, statistics generally show that more people will turn up to see attacking football in the divisions below than want to see their team under the cosh on a regular basis in a higher level.  Like most things, an all too familiar routine induces boredom which leads to disinterest, and once fans are gone it's hard to get them back - at any price.

There is some truth in what you say but on the other hand, a skim read through almost every other club's threads will find widespread discontent with whichever club's directors. I know that we're not particularly comparing like for like as we have the Brabco situation as well and hopefully we'll get a conclusion to that which at least doesn't harm the club.

 I'd like to play devil's advocate here though and say that if a team constantly punching above its weight for about seven years doesn't attract more support, I really wonder what kind of 'selling itself in the community' would work.  Despite that though, there seem to be regular initiatives. For example on 20th September The website carried an article advertising community tickets. Alan F is quoted as saying that there was a 100% take up on applications for this scheme last season which offers 30 free tickets for each home game to youth groups and schools. On 25th September the website carried a poster advertising up and coming games which I along with many others  have advertised on Facebook and Twitter. So, in the last 8 days there's two community initiatives advertised on the club's main interface with supporters.  No doubt folk will say that this is due to Sonstrust influence and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it is. If that is so then it's a double success - 1) Getting a rep on the board and 2) That representation making a difference.

The public face of the club is actually pretty good with excellent web presence via the website by Alan F (one of the best in the SPFL I'd suggest).  Jack Crawford does a sterling job on Twitter and has a following of more than 8000, the Facebook page is good and David Jenkinson does a fantastic job on Sons TV. There's even a fan app.  So much the better that these things are being organised and operated for the club by supporters, thus saving on running costs. If there is a better way of promoting the club in a cost effective way in the community to young people then I'd like to know what it is.

I've heard of the recent mishandling of situations by stewards in hospitality. I'm aware of some of the alleged shortcomings of the board in a PR capacity. These things obviously shouldn't happen - I've been fortunate, I haven't encountered anything negative personally.

We are a club run by volunteers and pretty much in spite of Brabco.

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Howlin' Wilf

[The Moonster]

6 minutes ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

There is some truth in what you say but on the other hand, a skim read through almost every other club's threads will find widespread discontent with whichever club's directors. I know that we're not particularly comparing like for like as we have the Brabco situation as well and hopefully we'll get a conclusion to that which at least doesn't harm the club.

 I'd like to play devil's advocate here though and say that if a team constantly punching above its weight for about seven years doesn't attract more support, I really wonder what kind of 'selling itself in the community' would work.  Despite that though, there seem to be regular initiatives. For example on 20th September The website carried an article advertising community tickets. Alan F is quoted as saying that there was a 100% take up on applications for this scheme last season which offers 30 free tickets for each home game to youth groups and schools. On 25th September the website carried a poster advertising up and coming games which I along with many others  have advertised on Facebook and Twitter. So, in the last 8 days there's two community initiatives advertised on the club's main interface with supporters.  No doubt folk will say that this is due to Sonstrust influence and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it is. If that is so then it's a double success - 1) Getting a rep on the board and 2) That representation making a difference.

The public face of the club is actually pretty good with excellent web presence via the website by Alan F (one of the best in the SPFL I'd suggest).  Jack Crawford does a sterling job on Twitter and has a following of more than 8000, the Facebook page is good and David Jenkinson does a fantastic job on Sons TV. There's even a fan app.  So much the better that these things are being organised and operated for the club by supporters, thus saving on running costs. If there is a better way of promoting the club in a cost effective way in the community to young people then I'd like to know what it is.

I've heard of the recent mishandling of situations by stewards in hospitality. I'm aware of some of the alleged shortcomings of the board in a PR capacity. These things obviously shouldn't happen - I've been fortunate, I haven't encountered anything negative personally.

We are a club run by volunteers and pretty much in spite of Brabco.

 

Agree, Wilf and I'd add to that slightly that in the last few weeks/months there have been regular pushes on social media and the OS for corporate hire of our facilities - I'll be honest that's the first time I've seen us actively push that (although that may be down to my ignorance tbf).

[pleslie99]

We're not the only club pricing the fans out of the game. It is happening up and down the country. Until sky's billions implode and the EPL falls on its arse then it will continue to happen, wages will continue to rise astronomically which in turn will push ticket prices up. It does filter all the way down to small clubs like us

[RandomGuy.]

We're not the only club pricing the fans out of the game. It is happening up and down the country. Until sky's billions implode and the EPL falls on its arse then it will continue to happen, wages will continue to rise astronomically which in turn will push ticket prices up. It does filter all the way down to small clubs like us

Worth noting ICT had a "pay what you want" deal with us one week, and the crowd barely rose and it was reported they made a fairly decent loss.

Our "adult plus U12s for £16" deal is attracting more fans, but it's been ongoing for four odd years now and the amount of extra fans is pretty minimal so far, we're also seemingly bringing less on due to it aswell, while there's still people who don't attend because that's "too expensive".

[BallochSonsFan]

Might as well copy and paste this from the facebook group:

It's a problem that isnt going to be addressed any time soon.

A crowd of 1000 fans at £20 per ticket brings in £20,000.
- If the club were to reduce prices to £18 per person, we'd need to get an extra 111 people through the doors in order to break even.
- At £15 per person we'd need an extra 333 fans attending games.

Clearly if you have the choice between selling 1000 tickets for a game and selling 1333 then you'd sell 1333. If the ticket revenue was identical then you still benefit from the better atmosphere that a bigger crowd generates and extra money from things like food, programme and 50/50 ticket sales. No business would deliberately price it's customers (I hate football fans being called customers but its the only word that really fits here) out of their market.

What happens if the club cut ticket costs to £18 and fall short 55 fans (around 50%)? We lose a thousand pounds every game compared to 1000 fans paying £20. Over the course of a season that's a significant amount towards somebody's wages.

At £15 per ticket and working to the same shortfall of around half of the break even number of fans? £2500 per week missing from club finances.

If we could guarantee that cutting costs would bring in more fans then it's a no brainer. Get more fans through the door. Get more people following Dumbarton. Hopefully start to see young fans coming along to games and getting hooked on Saturday afternoon football. We need to both retain the fans we have and attract new fans because it's a sad fact of life that we'll lose people to other priorities (get married, buy a house, have kids etc) or age/illness. We can't afford to lose anybody and we can'y simply rely on the crowd we have because that's a surefire way to a slow and painful demise.

But the risk of cutting prices if it doesnt help crowd numbers is that we'd lose anything from £18,000 to £35,000 a season in income on even moderately ambitious projections. Worst case scenario and a £15 ticket only attracts a couple of extra fans per game and we're losing some serious money.

Price is an issue for current fans. It's part of the reason that we're not attracting new fans. But we weren't attracting new fans when entry to games was £12 or £15 a shot and we were playing games we were reasonably thought to have a fighting chance of winning. We're in an area of high unemployment and relatively low wages, we have the Old Firm on our doorstep, we're losing people to other sports such as rugby or ice hockey and we've spent so long using the national press to tell everybody who'd listen that our game isnt worth following that - shock horror - a lot of people stopped caring about it.

[the snudge]

Sorry but Paddy Flannery referred to Dumbarton FC as "us". This made me weak in the knees. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by the snudge
Stupid me