Sons' sorrow

[BallochSonsFan]

It has to be seen as an opportunity okiii.

Whatever happens with Youngs Farm, we simply cannot afford to stumble from day to day without serious change at the club.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Brabco need public opinion in their favour in order to strengthen their planning application.
 
Club supporters have a part to play in that - the council won't want to be seen to make a decision without giving due consideration to the views of fans despite how little they actually seem to care about the club itself. I doubt that the council would want to be seen to make a poor decision in terms of the club that could damage the 4th oldest club in Scotland.
 
But ultimately community benefit will carry significant weight. There's potential economic benefit from additional council tax, set against increased demand for local services. They'll look at the potential for community facilities. Those things are as influential to the decision makers as the views of Dumbarton fans.
 
The council will take a range of views into account in making their decision. Fans have a voice but not the only voice in this.
 
 

Exactly. Hence why we should be hugely sceptical and concerned at the way it's being sprayed around Facebook and the media. People, with zero connection or concern for the club, having influence over the future of the club is absolutely in no way, shape or form a good thing. Like I said I'm all for community involvement going forward.

The Brabco propaganda machine is in full flow right now, from the videos, to social media stuff and now media articles. Worrying.

[TheFarPost]

32 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

The point still stands though. At this moment in time they most certainly have hee haw to do with the club and therefore their support for a new stadium shouldn't matter.
 

 

The reason they matter right now (not just in the future) is that they are prospective customers for facilities, which is a significant part of the business model for making the development work for the club. 

[TheFarPost]

25 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

If nothing else, Brabco and their representatives have probably done more recently to reach out to the wider community than successive DFC BoD's. Now whether anyone cares for Brabco or their proposals, please consider this: perhaps the current plans and process may actually represent a golden opportunity to put in place a truly functional Board for the first time in decades.

I remain sceptical of the jigsaw falling neatly into place, but the closer the Trust is to the action the better chance we have of achieving that. One thing is for sure, the current North Korean management style will eventually kill the club, Championship status or not.

That's how those of us in negotiation over this see things. There is  real potential for beneficial change (not least in the way that the club is governed and run as a football, community and commercial enterprise) - but there are also plenty of potential pitfalls and snags, which we are keeping a very sharp eye out for. Whether we stay or whether we go, what will be needed to make things work for the club is investment, good governance, real fan engagement, sound business planning, culture change (a lot more goodwill all round), community partnerships, and the ability to create much more of a buzz around our brilliant little club. 

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

The reason they matter right now (not just in the future) is that they are prospective customers for facilities, which is a significant part of the business model for making the development work for the club. 

Of course they matter in that sense but that's not what I'm talking about. I've made it really clear in the posts above.

I'm talking about them having an influence over council decision making and them spraying shite all over Facebook when they have no concern over the future of our club. It looks like they will play a big part in all of this, especially when it comes to convincing the general public and that is a bad thing IMO. Bought support, who convince others to support it without any facts, who then remove comments of anyone trying to outline some concerns fans have - bad.

[TheFarPost]

33 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

Whatever happens with Youngs Farm, we simply cannot afford to stumble from day to day without serious change at the club.

Couldn't agree more... that's what we need to be working for. Which also involves getting back to the work we as a trust were beginning to do four years ago (before the stadium question came back and really started to soak up time and attention) - working on a plan for how the club should move forward. Clarity on the planning decision would help in all this, because then at least we know what we're dealing with. The fact that it has been hanging over us unresolved for years hasn't helped anybody. Equally, a functioning DFC board working in partnership with fans through the trust (and the CIC vehicle we are creating) could make a massive difference. 

[sonsanorak]

I'm absolutely not convinced they give a shit about us other than for their own benefit.

As said before, I'm a coach with Riverside and was at the agm where support for the new build was discussed.

This part of your post was exactly my feeling on the request from DFCs agents for us to publicly support the new scheme.

The poor relations, suspicion or mistrust even, between local teams and DFC should be a real concern to us all.

If DFC were serious about involving local groups in a community hub they could write up a memo of agreement or understanding. I appreciate the new pr folk are pro's, but they're contracted to gain some short term success. What happens when they leave needs to be established.

[sonsanorak]

Also, the TNS game has been announced as being 7.35 ko on the saturday night

[TheFarPost]

6 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

I'm talking about them having an influence over council decision making and them spraying shite all over Facebook when they have no concern over the future of our club. It looks like they will play a big part in all of this, especially when it comes to convincing the general public and that is a bad thing IMO. Bought support, who convince others to support it without any facts, who then remove comments of anyone trying to outline some concerns fans have - bad.

 

I don't think most people are going to be naively swayed by hype, and the council will have certain pretty key, gritty and well defined  planning issues at the forefront of their minds when they make their decision, not promo videos. I'm not saying this stuff doesn't have some influence, and I get your point, but I don't think we should over-worry it.  It's *planning* questions which will be the real determinants in January. (The FB reach is pretty small so far, too. That said, deleting reasonable comments is absolutely not on, and we'll raise that firmly with the parties involved. )

[Silverton End]

6 minutes ago, sonsanorak said:

Also, the TNS game has been announced as being 7.35 ko on the saturday night

What a joke that ko time is. Disappointing

[Jan Vojáček]

6 minutes ago, sonsanorak said:

Also, the TNS game has been announced as being 7.35 ko on the saturday night

Wonder who decided that was a good idea. 

[TheFarPost]

4 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

A few observations from me in regards to these recent press releases:

1. I note that Chris Stainton was "speaking on behalf of the Dumbarton board" in his quotes. As far as I'm aware Chris Stainton, nor Brabco, currently have anyone on the board. Are the board happy for him to speak on their behalf? Why didn't the club Chairman give a statement if the board are behind it?

2. Whilst Ian Wilson doesn't appear to have his name on anything DFC at the moment, he still seems to be involved behind the scenes. It's a worry for me that if planning permission is granted he will waltz back on the scene. I know some Brabco guys don't want to be known, but of the guys we do know we should be informed of what their actual role is and what their role will be going forward.

3. They've gone heavy on the "fans back this plan now" without any fans actually saying they do (the odd few have in meetings granted, but no official word has been given). The Trust have said all along that we would back the plans if we could be given guarantees of a few things, mainly that the club are under no liability and we retain (or expand) our representation on the board. I'm not aware of any guarantees being given as of yet (they have said these things but nothing in writing).

4. The figures quoted for staying at the Rock seem to go wildly from being difficult but manageable to impossible to service. It can't be difficult for us to get some quotes done here and find out what the real damage is.  If the quoted figures are correct and it's impossible for us to service, then I question why the owners have let this get to this stage. Where is the business plan here? We have nothing concrete business wise for the new stadium (all conjecture based on what price we get for land - even read the wording in the statement - "sustainable and first class facilities", it's buzz words with no actual detail) and we don't have a business plan for staying where we are. How can we be asked to support something when the plan for it isn't concrete and the back-up plan isn't even being drawn up?

5. Offshore ownership. What's the script here? We were told not worry, they'd bring it onshore but since then we've heard f**k all.

IMO Brabco still don't grasp the doubts of the majority of fans. All of the above would be easy to answer if you were a competent business man with a good idea of what your plan was. They haven't answered (and I doubt they will), either because they can't or because they don't want to, either way it's bad news.

Thanks, Moonster. Good points and questions. Some quick comments back...

1. and 2.  Ian Wilson was removed from the DFC board, and we were told that from now on his function would be 'back room' and 'technical'. But it has become clear in recent weeks that he is playing a *much* bigger role than we had understood. We are presently clarifying this with Brabco, as he has been hostile towards the trust,  condescending to fans and alienating towards others in the past. We'd like to know what his and Brabco's intentions are regarding his role into the future - and the place of the trust, too. As far as Brabco and the board is concerned -- the current rep is Callum Hosie, but his participation is limited by ill health. You are right, it is noticeable and curious that neither the chairman nor any DFC director is quoted, and Chris Stainton is not on the board (though I actually think it would be helpful if he was, at least for a time, as he's been good to deal with and understands what needs to be done). I have no doubt that the board will back the application, but the disconnect here is evident and concerning. We've long argued that everybody ought to be round a table talking about this. 

3.  What we've said, based on our knowledge so far and on discussion with fans,  is that we recognise that a sustainable community stadium development could  be a major boon, and that if it happens we want fans and the trust to be fully part of it. That's been interpreted by The Evening News as "fans support", and we've responded by pointing out that the trust has not formally endorsed anything, and could only do so through a vote of our members. The trust board has a mandate to engage, negotiate and advocate for our concerns in the way we have been doing. We are seeking further assurances from Brabco moving forward. More to follow on that...

4. If we stay there are challenges (not least financial ones), but we think they could be handled. That said, we shouldn't be remotely complacent about them or the heavy lifting that might be involved. I've  commented more on that here:

 5. On the offshore issue, Chris Stainton has been working on getting the club owned onshore, and we are told that there will be an announcement on that shortly. That's a good achievement by us in pressing it, and Chris has kept his word. We'll naturally scrutinise the outcome carefully. The other issue that needs much more clarity is stadium ownership. 

More generally, I agree that more progress can and should have been made, though I'm not sure any of it is 'easy', even with a plan!  I know CS recognises the situation, and there has been much more understanding of where fans are coming from in their concerns from him and from the new development consultant than we ever had in the past.

We'll make use of these points you've raised (and others from PnB and other forums), and discuss them face-to-face with Brabco early in the New Year. There are big issues to settle, for sure. 

[TheFarPost]

29 minutes ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Wonder who decided that was a good idea. 

No one sane could consider it a 'good idea'... the issue is (as always) who benefits from holding it at this inconvenient time, and who decides? Not the fans, for sure. They were never in the decision-making equation, you can bet. 

[Silverton End]

29 minutes ago, TheFarPost said:

No one sane could consider it a 'good idea'... the issue is (as always) who benefits from holding it at this inconvenient time, and who decides? Not the fans, for sure. They were never in the decision-making equation, you can bet. 

S4C, I think the kick off time is to suit the Welsh language tv channel?

They usually show live Wales Premier Football League or Rugby on a Saturday afternoon.

Poor show at any rate, whatever the thinking behind it.

[BallochSonsFan]

Day trip will mean a reasonable start time but probably getting home around 4 am.

 

Done it for hockey trips - Belfast and Nottingham usually get home around that time.

 

Long day

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Wonder who decided that was a good idea. 

Well clearly S4C as the broadcast rights holder.

Personally I'd probably have preferred that to our early afternoon Sunday kick off down there though. I accept it's a major issue for those planning to go up and down in the same day. If you are staying overnight afterwards though, which I would given it's the Saturday, then it's fine. Allows you a leisurely travel down on the Saturday, get checked in to a hotel, get to the match and then back into town (the ground isn't walking distance to the town really so someone will have to drive or it will need a taxi or something).

If you aren't going at all then an evening kick off is ideal to watch at home or in the pub.

Problem is for those traveling straight back afterwards. I guess it will be about 4.5 hours back to Dumbarton so back circa 2am or later if extra time.

[Scottylintonstowel]

13 minutes ago, Silverton End said:

S4C, I think the kick off time is to suit the Welsh language tv channel?

They usually show live Wales Premier Football League or Rugby on a Saturday afternoon.

Poor show at any rate, whatever the thinking behind it.

I think that a lot of fans will end up finding a hotel or boarding house for the night unless you want to drive home from a game which could finish after 10 o’clock if there is extra time.

I think we should regard this match as our Lisbon moment and devote the weekend to the game. With our next semi final due in 2050 we might as well make the most of it.

[stumigoo]

Hello, a very brief mid-term report on Dumbarton can be found here. I am happy for you all to totally disagree with me and hurl abuse at me (especially as I predict you to possibly finish 9th....sorry about that).

[Rangeman]

I heard hearts weren’t happy with game time given to ally Roy  so if he leaves we’ve no one to blame bar ourselves  as he looks dangerous every time he’s on the ball  and he scores goals so what’s going wrong

[DumbartonTheSons]

The point still stands though. At this moment in time they most certainly have hee haw to do with the club and therefore their support for a new stadium shouldn't matter.

I'm all for them being a part of DFC in the years to come but as for their support having some sort of leverage in our move? Absolutely not for me. They will support the move for one thing and one thing only - themselves. The pish being sprayed all over Facebook will only serve to do one thing - convince the masses to support something they know nothing about because its shiny and new, great for the community and will magically make our youngsters healthy and fit.

IMO Brabco are not reaching out to these people for the good of the club or the community. They are buying support from people who have nothing to do with us and they know fine well the community angle they are taking will win over the public which could sway the cooncil with decision making. IMO that's diluting our voices and I'm absolutely not convinced they give a shit about us other than for their own benefit.

Absolutely nail on the head there. As important as community relationships are with local youth football teams and many other areas, they shouldn't have any bearing on this current 'project' from our owners.

If it's supported by all and sundry (youth clubs, local businesses, 5-a-side teams and folk who have never been to The Rock in their puff) aside from those who actually matter, us, the fans, and it goes up the creek, would they care?

Brabco need public opinion in their favour in order to strengthen their planning application.
 
Club supporters have a part to play in that - the council won't want to be seen to make a decision without giving due consideration to the views of fans despite how little they actually seem to care about the club itself. I doubt that the council would want to be seen to make a poor decision in terms of the club that could damage the 4th oldest club in Scotland.
 
But ultimately community benefit will carry significant weight. There's potential economic benefit from additional council tax, set against increased demand for local services. They'll look at the potential for community facilities. Those things are as influential to the decision makers as the views of Dumbarton fans.
 
The council will take a range of views into account in making their decision. Fans have a voice but not the only voice in this.

I totally get all of what you're saying, but my fear is that if all of the above is looked on favourably, not a care would be given by WDC to the 'damage the 4th oldest club in Scotland' would suffer as a result.

Exactly. Hence why we should be hugely sceptical and concerned at the way it's being sprayed around Facebook and the media. People, with zero connection or concern for the club, having influence over the future of the club is absolutely in no way, shape or form a good thing. Like I said I'm all for community involvement going forward.

The Brabco propaganda machine is in full flow right now, from the videos, to social media stuff and now media articles. Worrying.

Much like your first comment I've endorsed above, this is absolutely spot on for me.

The reason they matter right now (not just in the future) is that they are prospective customers for facilities, which is a significant part of the business model for making the development work for the club. 

As I've mentioned above, community engagement and working with several parts of the community is and will be essential going forward, and does undoubtedly form part of the club's business model. However, as for them having weight in the support or lack of, in this project could prove very, very dangerous.

I heard hearts weren’t happy with game time given to ally Roy  so if he leaves we’ve no one to blame bar ourselves as he looks dangerous every time he’s on the ball  and he scores goals so what’s going wrong

If Roy leaves, he leaves. He's cracking going forward, but much like Froxylias, when it comes to defending and protecting his full-back, he's often lacking.

I'd like to see him stay as he is dangerous with the ball, but if Stevie thinks he can bring in a similar player on loan who offers more defensively then I'd be happy for him to explore that. Roy would then be further down the pecking order, and if someone better defensively was sourced then I wouldn't lose much sleep over Roy's spell being cut short with us.