Sons' sorrow

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

I'm not even going to waste my time responding to sonsational.

He's making an absolute rip roaring c**t out of himself. My services are not required here.

Continue...

[Boghead ranter]

It's far too hard to attract new fans to follow Dumbarton, 99% of people who have an interest in football in this area follow the old firm (and by follow I mean occasionally watch their games on tv..)

I don't know what the club do behind the scenes to try get new people in, do they still give tickets away to schools?

Back in the Boghead days, DFC used to regularly give out Complimentaries to a local Primary school, then another Primary would get their turn over the course of the Season.

It certainly wouldn't do any harm to dish out some free tickets to schoolkids, especially for matches that aren't that busy, Livi, Alloa etc.

Never know, they might even make some positive noise, in the 'Home End'

Free tickets, yes. Also, players used to go out and do visits to schools, youth groups etc, took on some of the responsibility of selling the club to the local area. I remember Murdo MacLeod coming to our BB display and being the guest of honour and handing out the awards. Me and many of my fellow BB's were pretty impressed.

Also, many players used to show face at charity nights (even just bottle smashes in one of the pubs), again getting the club's profile raised, both in person and in the subsequent pictures in the local rags. It's all PR & interacting with the local community.

[aftershocker]

You were having a go at some suggestions put forward and previous events that have been arranged, all of these events are arranged by the Trust i.e. volunteers. None of them are paid for the work they do. I'm not sure who we employ commercially? I thought Alan Findlay was the commercial director and as far as I'm aware volunteers all his time. We employ a CEO, if you ire is directed at him then fair enough.

We were discussing fund raising ideas and you suggested free tickets to kids, I was merely asking what revenue that brings into the club. I agree with the comments from Frank above about us not being the most officially welcoming but I waded into this debate because the fund raising ideas were being shot down and the folk who are being mentioned above are not the same people trying to put fund raisers together.

I too would like to see local kids getting free tickets - I remember getting one as a child. I didn't come much then, but when I moved back to the area, it gave me an affiliation and it was the only club team I was interested in watching

will it bring in increased revenue in the short term? probably not much, but they will spend money on pies etc

Plus sides though?

• they might come back and will buy a ticket next time
• they might pester their mum or dad or pals to go with them
• they might improve the atmosphere at home games

these types of initiatives do have to be seen as longer term, but can they do any harm?

[The Moonster]

I too would like to see local kids getting free tickets - I remember getting one as a child. I didn't come much then, but when I moved back to the area, it gave me an affiliation and it was the only club team I was interested in watching

will it bring in increased revenue in the short term? probably not much, but they will spend money on pies etc

Plus sides though?

• they might come back and will buy a ticket next time
• they might pester their mum or dad or pals to go with them
• they might improve the atmosphere at home games

these types of initiatives do have to be seen as longer term, but can they do any harm?

I agree, giving free or subsidised tickets to kids is a good thing wherever possible (I would've thought that we already do this in some capacity?). A group of kids buying pies has next to no effect or our overall revenue though, we only make a small percentage of the profit on catering. I agree with all of the long term benefits of getting kids into the games but the point is we need money, a lot of money, to be able to stay in this division. Money that we won't get from giving out free tickets just to fill the stand.

Free tickets, yes. Also, players used to go out and do visits to schools, youth groups etc, took on some of the responsibility of selling the club to the local area. I remember Murdo MacLeod coming to our BB display and being the guest of honour and handing out the awards. Me and many of my fellow BB's were pretty impressed.

Also, many players used to show face at charity nights (even just bottle smashes in one of the pubs), again getting the club's profile raised, both in person and in the subsequent pictures in the local rags. It's all PR & interacting with the local community.

Same when I was a boy only 10(ish) years ago. Craig Brittain would be there on many occasions to hand out awards. It was good for me as he was my favourite player but the others who had no affiliation to Dumbarton? Didn't know who he was and couldn't have given two fucks about finding out either.

The people of Dumbarton don't give a f**k about us and I don't think any amount of free tickets or player youth club visits will change that, sadly. Of course that doesn't mean we give up and accept it, we should still integrate ourselves into the community as much as possible but we need to realise there is only so much we can do.

[pleslie99]

Free tickets, yes. Also, players used to go out and do visits to schools, youth groups etc, took on some of the responsibility of selling the club to the local area. I remember Murdo MacLeod coming to our BB display and being the guest of honour and handing out the awards. Me and many of my fellow BB's were pretty impressed.

Also, many players used to show face at charity nights (even just bottle smashes in one of the pubs), again getting the club's profile raised, both in person and in the subsequent pictures in the local rags. It's all PR & interacting with the local community.

I still have a signed bb something from Murdo from those days. Well chuffed so I was when he turned up......

[pleslie99]

This is an interesting debate and one which everyone will have an opinion on. I for one am guilty about not attending games, 1 so far this season! But as with most people that is down to work commitments and family commitments not to mention the cost. £18 is a lot of money for a game at our level. New fans aren't gonna turn up for that price. Free tickets for school kids is a smashing idea though, I got them when I was a nipper for boghead and loved it, made my dad take me and lone behold he had to pay in....increasing the revenue for the club!

[George Parr]

Many locals are astounded when they hear our admission prices and simply aren't aware that it reflects our current lofty position in the Scottish league structure.

I had thought Rangers spending a bit of time in the Championship might have drawn a bit more attention to how well we've been doing in recent years but any additional support doesn't seem to have materialised.

I sometimes wonder whether playing at a lower level would have a greater positive impact on our home support, with lower prices and an increased chance of success from game to game.

[The Moonster]

not to mention the cost. £18 is a lot of money for a game at our level. New fans aren't gonna turn up for that price.

Really don't want to be jumping in on everyone's points here so I'll make this my last contribution to this debate but the price is something that fans need to deal with. Fans want quality on the pitch without going any deeper into their own pockets. People will often say "I'm not paying that to watch that pish" without realising that people not paying to watch that pish unfortunately makes that pish even worse and in turn forces clubs to put prices up. If fans turned up in big numbers they'd have some leverage with clubs on things like prices, as it is now our club look at our core support of around 600 and charge accordingly (taking into account any decent sized away supports). Making tickets cheaper won't gain us fans, only lose us money.

[Jan Vojáček]

Many locals are astounded when they hear our admission prices and simply aren't aware that it reflects our current lofty position in the Scottish league structure.

I had thought Rangers spending a bit of time in the Championship might have drawn a bit more attention to how well we've been doing in recent years but any additional support doesn't seem to have materialised.

I sometimes wonder whether playing at a lower level would have a greater positive impact on our home support, with lower prices and an increased chance of success from game to game.

I get that a lot, when people ask who you support and you say Dumbarton they raise a chuckle and ask what league they're in. My standard reply now (in order to cater from the dribbling simpleton/uneducated bigot) is; "Championship, mate, same league as Rangers". Most of these so called Rangers fans are shocked at this.

Obviously I'm a wee bit away from the Rock and Sons aren't my local team, but I'd guess many of Dumbarton's Old Firm finest also have no idea what league their local team are in.

[Benito Robles]

There seems to be a complete lack of understanding from some folk on the economics of football. Entrance prices to matches are again a main source of income for clubs to pay wages of staff, mainly players, and at semi professional level, every penny gained has to be a prisoner. Dumbarton fans don't seem to realise that even part time players can command a decent wedge and because of the club's second tier status, to attract quality players, higher than 'normal' money will need to be paid. We'd all love to pay £6 and watch the best players, but the reality is somewhat different. At junior level, FWIW, the complaints are much the same, but there is a little more leeway in supporters understanding. We all want something for nothing. The Sons should be proud of their achievements and be much more aware of what actually is happening. Enjoy the moment because all too easily it can slip away.

[Darren1872]

We need to find a balance, 300 fans at 18 quid a pop or 600 fans at a tenner each... Only way to find that balance would be to have "cheap days" to try and Draw the crowds in who would hopefully be mainstays.

[BallochSonsFan]

If the problem was solely down to price then we'd have an easy solution. Drop the price, watch the fans flood through the gates and make a profit on associated match day spending.

Sadly price is only one of a number of factors and its one that's entirely circular. Crowds are low? Fans pay increased ticket prices to compensate as clubs struggle to stay above water. Ticket prices increase? Fans are increasingly priced out of football.

I've always thought we sell Scottish football short as a product. It's not easy when television will hype the EPL brand and can sell the top leagues in Europe for the cost of following a club on a Saturday afternoon. For me football is always best experienced in person and only part of that is down to whats on offer on the park. We used to have a Saturday afternoon football culture but a number of factors, including the inept de-valuing of our game by those who are supposed to be running it, have seen that culture weaken over the past couple of decades.

I think the club could do more to get fans through the door. Unsold seats earn us nothing and my priority if I were in the boardroom would be to give tickets to local schools. Kids will buy snacks. Kids will make a noise. If only a handful of them each year enjoy the experience enough to want to come back with a parent or grandparent then its still a great result. Free tickets for unsold seats cost us nothing. For me it's a punt worth taking.

But do we really sell our game properly in Scotland? My other team sells a razzle dazzle night out and it's done so very effectively. A lot of stuff that the Clan can do simply wouldn't translate to football. Hockey is a fast-paced sport and games can have plenty of excitement: Contrast that with much of whats on offer from Scottish football. Braehead is a modern, comfortable arena: Scottish football grounds range from functional to crumbling. The Elite League isn't competing with the NHL for fans: Dumbarton are competing with the old firm and with televised football. That said, hockey puts the fan at the centre of everything and that's something that football could do well to adopt. Social media offers fans access to clubs - and to players - and the family friendly atmosphere is a turn on for many families. I'd hate to see football sanitised beyond recognition but I'll admit to enjoying the friendlier and happier atmosphere at a hockey game as a relief from what can sometimes be the cynicism of football.

To concentrate solely on price is to miss the point. You could set the entry price at the next home game at £1 and you'd still struggle to get more than the usual average crowd. Those who follow football but don't attend games get their fix from TV. Those who don't follow football are given absolutely no encouragement to do so. Kids grow up playing Fifa on their PS4 and pretend they're Lionel Messi - how many kids are going along to Scottish football matches to watch the wing play of Willie Gibson or Craig Sibbald?

If you were starting Scottish football from scratch tomorrow, there's not a person out there who would come up with what we have today. That's the fundamental problem we've got.

[optimistic]

Why can't the club sell strips in outlets around Dumbarton?, sports direct or asda or another, surely it would make sense that their in a shop window, being seen by the young kids walking past, maybe some may find it a more attractive option than the old firm

[The Moonster]

Why can't the club sell strips in outlets around Dumbarton?, sports direct or asda or another, surely it would make sense that their in a shop window, being seen by the young kids walking past, maybe some may find it a more attractive option than the old firm

Anyone selling the top will need their cut too, which means it'll either cost folk more in these shops than it would straight from the club or Dumbarton sell to them at a lower price and thus lower the profit margin for the club.

[Benito Robles]

Why can't the club sell strips in outlets around Dumbarton?, sports direct or asda or another, surely it would make sense that their in a shop window, being seen by the young kids walking past, maybe some may find it a more attractive option than the old firm

The answer here is simple. Any outlet would want a fee for doing so, if indeed they are at all interested.

There is an arrogance amongst football supporters that shops/people are just waiting to be exploited. The best marketing tool that any football club has is its team. A winning team helps sell bums on seats, replica shirts and so on. Dumbarton are punching way above their weight and are doing fantastically well, despite the moans. Being in the second tier and not being able to get your core support to have a substantial increase tells its own story. The daft idea to move your stadium needs now to be called into question. Why build a larger stadium if the present one cannot be used properly? Dumbarton FC as they stand just now is as goods as it gets, present league position notwithstanding. As I said earlier today, cherish what you have, because, trust me, it can evaporate so so quickly.

[Jordo1872]

If the problem was solely down to price then we'd have an easy solution. Drop the price, watch the fans flood through the gates and make a profit on associated match day spending.

Sadly price is only one of a number of factors and its one that's entirely circular. Crowds are low? Fans pay increased ticket prices to compensate as clubs struggle to stay above water. Ticket prices increase? Fans are increasingly priced out of football.

I've always thought we sell Scottish football short as a product. It's not easy when television will hype the EPL brand and can sell the top leagues in Europe for the cost of following a club on a Saturday afternoon. For me football is always best experienced in person and only part of that is down to whats on offer on the park. We used to have a Saturday afternoon football culture but a number of factors, including the inept de-valuing of our game by those who are supposed to be running it, have seen that culture weaken over the past couple of decades.

I think the club could do more to get fans through the door. Unsold seats earn us nothing and my priority if I were in the boardroom would be to give tickets to local schools. Kids will buy snacks. Kids will make a noise. If only a handful of them each year enjoy the experience enough to want to come back with a parent or grandparent then its still a great result. Free tickets for unsold seats cost us nothing. For me it's a punt worth taking.

But do we really sell our game properly in Scotland? My other team sells a razzle dazzle night out and it's done so very effectively. A lot of stuff that the Clan can do simply wouldn't translate to football. Hockey is a fast-paced sport and games can have plenty of excitement: Contrast that with much of whats on offer from Scottish football. Braehead is a modern, comfortable arena: Scottish football grounds range from functional to crumbling. The Elite League isn't competing with the NHL for fans: Dumbarton are competing with the old firm and with televised football. That said, hockey puts the fan at the centre of everything and that's something that football could do well to adopt. Social media offers fans access to clubs - and to players - and the family friendly atmosphere is a turn on for many families. I'd hate to see football sanitised beyond recognition but I'll admit to enjoying the friendlier and happier atmosphere at a hockey game as a relief from what can sometimes be the cynicism of football.

To concentrate solely on price is to miss the point. You could set the entry price at the next home game at £1 and you'd still struggle to get more than the usual average crowd. Those who follow football but don't attend games get their fix from TV. Those who don't follow football are given absolutely no encouragement to do so. Kids grow up playing Fifa on their PS4 and pretend they're Lionel Messi - how many kids are going along to Scottish football matches to watch the wing play of Willie Gibson or Craig Sibbald?

If you were starting Scottish football from scratch tomorrow, there's not a person out there who would come up with what we have today. That's the fundamental problem we've got.

Excellent post. Agree fully with every point you make. Scottish football has a real struggle on its hands in attracting new fans, not just Dumbarton, but we do ourselves no favours with either pricing or the general match day experience.

I'm taking my two nephews to see the Clan in December, and really looking forward to it.

[Jan Vojáček]

The answer here is simple. Any outlet would want a fee for doing so, if indeed they are at all interested.

There is an arrogance amongst football supporters that shops/people are just waiting to be exploited. The best marketing tool that any football club has is its team. A winning team helps sell bums on seats, replica shirts and so on. Dumbarton are punching way above their weight and are doing fantastically well, despite the moans. Being in the second tier and not being able to get your core support to have a substantial increase tells its own story. The daft idea to move your stadium needs now to be called into question. Why build a larger stadium if the present one cannot be used properly? Dumbarton FC as they stand just now is as goods as it gets, present league position notwithstanding. As I said earlier today, cherish what you have, because, trust me, it can evaporate so so quickly.

I think I agree with absolutely everything here.

Don't get the new stadium thing started mind you! If they ever get round to laying a single brick of it I'll be utterly shocked.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

If the problem was solely down to price then we'd have an easy solution. Drop the price, watch the fans flood through the gates and make a profit on associated match day spending.

Sadly price is only one of a number of factors and its one that's entirely circular. Crowds are low? Fans pay increased ticket prices to compensate as clubs struggle to stay above water. Ticket prices increase? Fans are increasingly priced out of football.

I've always thought we sell Scottish football short as a product. It's not easy when television will hype the EPL brand and can sell the top leagues in Europe for the cost of following a club on a Saturday afternoon. For me football is always best experienced in person and only part of that is down to whats on offer on the park. We used to have a Saturday afternoon football culture but a number of factors, including the inept de-valuing of our game by those who are supposed to be running it, have seen that culture weaken over the past couple of decades.

I think the club could do more to get fans through the door. Unsold seats earn us nothing and my priority if I were in the boardroom would be to give tickets to local schools. Kids will buy snacks. Kids will make a noise. If only a handful of them each year enjoy the experience enough to want to come back with a parent or grandparent then its still a great result. Free tickets for unsold seats cost us nothing. For me it's a punt worth taking.

But do we really sell our game properly in Scotland? My other team sells a razzle dazzle night out and it's done so very effectively. A lot of stuff that the Clan can do simply wouldn't translate to football. Hockey is a fast-paced sport and games can have plenty of excitement: Contrast that with much of whats on offer from Scottish football. Braehead is a modern, comfortable arena: Scottish football grounds range from functional to crumbling. The Elite League isn't competing with the NHL for fans: Dumbarton are competing with the old firm and with televised football. That said, hockey puts the fan at the centre of everything and that's something that football could do well to adopt. Social media offers fans access to clubs - and to players - and the family friendly atmosphere is a turn on for many families. I'd hate to see football sanitised beyond recognition but I'll admit to enjoying the friendlier and happier atmosphere at a hockey game as a relief from what can sometimes be the cynicism of football.

To concentrate solely on price is to miss the point. You could set the entry price at the next home game at £1 and you'd still struggle to get more than the usual average crowd. Those who follow football but don't attend games get their fix from TV. Those who don't follow football are given absolutely no encouragement to do so. Kids grow up playing Fifa on their PS4 and pretend they're Lionel Messi - how many kids are going along to Scottish football matches to watch the wing play of Willie Gibson or Craig Sibbald?

If you were starting Scottish football from scratch tomorrow, there's not a person out there who would come up with what we have today. That's the fundamental problem we've got.

Excellent post which I fully agree with on most points.

The only thing I'd tend to disagree with is enjoying the atmosphere of the hockey more than the football. I have attended 3 Braehead Clan games and there's just something about it I find a bit cheesey and at times I find myself cringing. Whilst it is a great night out I couldn't see myself becoming a regular nor would I like football to go down that route in terms of the atmosphere. That's entirely personal though and I can fully understand why families choose to attend the hockey over a baltic Saturday watching St Mirren or Dumbarton. For me though it's only really a one off type of thing that I enjoy in moderation.

Despite me personally finding it all a bit cheesey there is a lot to be learned from the likes of the Braehead Clan. Absolutely everything revolves around the paying customer and they go all out to ensure you have good night out. That's the one thing outside of the exciting, fast paced sport on offer that I really do like about it.

Unfortunately they clearly have more money at their disposal for the likes of marketing, even before they had become as popular as it is today. They have the backing of some pretty huge companies in Intu and numerous outlets that are based in the shopping centre. I feel that this makes it quite hard to compare the two. They must be taking in an absolute mint!

FWIW do the Clan give out free tickets for school kids in the Paisley area? Their popularity seems to be absolutely booming at the minute. Any time I've been in attendance the arena looks completely full with the hockey team attracting more fans than the likes of Falkirk and of course their local fitba club St Mirren. That worries me slightly...

[Benito Robles]

If the problem was solely down to price then we'd have an easy solution. Drop the price, watch the fans flood through the gates and make a profit on associated match day spending.

Sadly price is only one of a number of factors and its one that's entirely circular. Crowds are low? Fans pay increased ticket prices to compensate as clubs struggle to stay above water. Ticket prices increase? Fans are increasingly priced out of football.

I've always thought we sell Scottish football short as a product. It's not easy when television will hype the EPL brand and can sell the top leagues in Europe for the cost of following a club on a Saturday afternoon. For me football is always best experienced in person and only part of that is down to whats on offer on the park. We used to have a Saturday afternoon football culture but a number of factors, including the inept de-valuing of our game by those who are supposed to be running it, have seen that culture weaken over the past couple of decades.

I think the club could do more to get fans through the door. Unsold seats earn us nothing and my priority if I were in the boardroom would be to give tickets to local schools. Kids will buy snacks. Kids will make a noise. If only a handful of them each year enjoy the experience enough to want to come back with a parent or grandparent then its still a great result. Free tickets for unsold seats cost us nothing. For me it's a punt worth taking.

But do we really sell our game properly in Scotland? My other team sells a razzle dazzle night out and it's done so very effectively. A lot of stuff that the Clan can do simply wouldn't translate to football. Hockey is a fast-paced sport and games can have plenty of excitement: Contrast that with much of whats on offer from Scottish football. Braehead is a modern, comfortable arena: Scottish football grounds range from functional to crumbling. The Elite League isn't competing with the NHL for fans: Dumbarton are competing with the old firm and with televised football. That said, hockey puts the fan at the centre of everything and that's something that football could do well to adopt. Social media offers fans access to clubs - and to players - and the family friendly atmosphere is a turn on for many families. I'd hate to see football sanitised beyond recognition but I'll admit to enjoying the friendlier and happier atmosphere at a hockey game as a relief from what can sometimes be the cynicism of football.

To concentrate solely on price is to miss the point. You could set the entry price at the next home game at £1 and you'd still struggle to get more than the usual average crowd. Those who follow football but don't attend games get their fix from TV. Those who don't follow football are given absolutely no encouragement to do so. Kids grow up playing Fifa on their PS4 and pretend they're Lionel Messi - how many kids are going along to Scottish football matches to watch the wing play of Willie Gibson or Craig Sibbald?

If you were starting Scottish football from scratch tomorrow, there's not a person out there who would come up with what we have today. That's the fundamental problem we've got.

Some good points here, but the comparison is wrong and actually, for me, part of the problem Scottish football faces.

We constantly compare what we do with the English Premier League and when we exhaust that list, attention turns to other sports, which is frankly unfair. Football in no way an be compared with ice hockey or basketball. Apple versus oranges. The game itself should be the focus, not whether or not there are hotdogs on offer, cheerleaders or face painting. By all means, football has to make surroundings comfortable, that's a given. Competition is the key, and the rest flows from this.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Benito Robles

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Some good points here, but the comparison is wrong and actually, for me, part of the problem Scottish football faces.

We constantly compare what we do with the English Premier League and when we exhaust that list, attention turns to other sports, which is frankly unfair. Football in no way an be compared with ice hockey or basketball. Apple versus oranges. The game itself should be the focus, not whether or not there are hotdogs on offer, cheerleaders or face painting. By all means, football has to make surroundings comfortable, that's a given. Competition is the key, and the rest flows from this.

Whilst I agree with what you are saying the flashing lights, family friendly atmosphere and the mass amount of fan engaged activities that happen throughout the night do have an appeal for certain types of people (young families etc).

I agree it's like comparing apples and oranges to a certain extent but the sad reality is that sport fans are choosing to attend the hockey over the football. There aren't many out there who can afford both so technically the popularity of these sort of sports can have an adverse effect on crowds at the likes of Dumbarton. I personally know some younger fans who are choosing to attend the hockey over the football at the minute.

I'm not convinced that a high flying Sons team would see our crowds increase much at all. Less than 2 seasons ago we were in a Scottish Cup quarter final and fighting for a promotion play off spot and it didn't make a great deal of difference to home crowds.