Sons' sorrow

[cameron2000]

He's just clearly an angry, frustrated father. Just can't see beyond his Son. Only thing that annoys me is when Aitken gets stick for something he likely had no say in.

[Sons Fan]

Got a spare ticket for tomorrow as due to work commitments I now can't go PM if interested 

[BallochSonsFan]

I'd like to know when this mythical age of us producing all our own players was?

Losing the U20 side wasn't great. It feels like a real blow to not have that final link between youth and senior football. That said, when has it been effective for us in recent memory? I can't remember a recent period of us developing players who went on to make a big contribution for us, either on the park or in terms of development/transfer fees.

Removing the sentimentality, the club made the decision to give us the best chance of assembling a squad that'll keep us up. If it's Championship football and no u20 or League 1 football and an under-performing u20 then it's an unhappy but ultimately no-brainer decision.

[Jan Vojáček]

Got me thinking actually, of our youth team players to feature for the first team during our rise to the Championship, where are they now? Off the top of my head I managed to cobble together this team from 2008-now. I wouldn't fancy its chances of staying up to be honest, although I may have missed a few people who could've been better options.

The sad truth is that that we're a wee team and most of the best youth players will get snapped up by bigger clubs than us with fancy facilities, posh trackies and more than 500 home fans. They'll then have loan spells with teams like us and either work their into a first team (Chris Kane, Eamonn Brophy), sign permanently and work their way back up (Paul McGinn) or gradually float down the leagues into Junior football (Gary Smith, Jordan Halsman). Even if they do star for the youth side then they'll get pinched by a big team before they play a decent number of games for us - see PJ Crossan leaving Dunfermline for Celtic for big money or Liam Coogans, Airdrie to Huddersfield for example.

Josh Lumsden (Clydebank)

Nicky Devlin (Ayr United) Martin McNiff (Clyde) Jamie Lyden (Clydebank) Richie McKillen (Hurlford?)

Josh Horne (Shettleston) Tony Wallace (East Fife) Ryan Clark (Kilwinning, loan) Alan Cook (Stenhousemuir)

Keiran Brannan (Kilbirnie) Donald McCallum (Still here)

Devlin is the obvious success story there, but even he hasn't played at this level for more than 6 months - and that was on loan with us. A youth team just isn't hugely, financially viable for a small club living within touching distance of the ugly sisters, the fantastic academy at Queens Park and the tremendously funded 'Thistle Weir' academy.

[Nowhereman]

The last time we produced decent youth players was the 1970s. So not particularly relevant to nowadays

[The Moonster]

16 hours ago, Frank Quitely said:

Selective voting with your feet (ie the Betfred Cup and U20 fixtures) is pique; completely voting with your feet would be the only meaningful protest.

Merely the threat of a mass boycott was enough during the Rangers debacle and that was because fans could see a dangerous path. Why would I stop supporting Dumbarton completely when they might actually hold the same view as me (or us)? Should we cut off a vital supply of income to a club that supports our view? Of course, DFC's position on this hasn't been clarified, but it's about 90% certain they'd oppose such nonsense.

[itzdrk]

Got me thinking actually, of our youth team players to feature for the first team during our rise to the Championship, where are they now? Off the top of my head I managed to cobble together this team from 2008-now. I wouldn't fancy its chances of staying up to be honest, although I may have missed a few people who could've been better options.

The sad truth is that that we're a wee team and most of the best youth players will get snapped up by bigger clubs than us with fancy facilities, posh trackies and more than 500 home fans. They'll then have loan spells with teams like us and either work their into a first team (Chris Kane, Eamonn Brophy), sign permanently and work their way back up (Paul McGinn) or gradually float down the leagues into Junior football (Gary Smith, Jordan Halsman). Even if they do star for the youth side then they'll get pinched by a big team before they play a decent number of games for us - see PJ Crossan leaving Dunfermline for Celtic for big money or Liam Coogans, Airdrie to Huddersfield for example.

Josh Lumsden (Clydebank)

Nicky Devlin (Ayr United) Martin McNiff (Clyde) Jamie Lyden (Clydebank) Richie McKillen (Hurlford?)

Josh Horne (Shettleston) Tony Wallace (East Fife) Ryan Clark (Kilwinning, loan) Alan Cook (Stenhousemuir)

Keiran Brannan (Kilbirnie) Donald McCallum (Still here)

Devlin is the obvious success story there, but even he hasn't played at this level for more than 6 months - and that was on loan with us. A youth team just isn't hugely, financially viable for a small club living within touching distance of the ugly sisters, the fantastic academy at Queens Park and the tremendously funded 'Thistle Weir' academy.

Do you have no youth setup at all or just no u20s?

[cameron2000]

Do you have no youth setup at all or just no u20s?

We have youth set up until u17s. Then it's seem we are selecting the best ones and loaning them out to Lowland league teams which is actually better for them than u20s tbh. But it's still only 2 or 3 that have been kept on and loaned out.

[Jan Vojáček]

1 hour ago, cameron2000 said:

We have youth set up until u17s. Then it's seem we are selecting the best ones and loaning them out to Lowland league teams which is actually better for them than u20s tbh. But it's still only 2 or 3 that have been kept on and loaned out.

*Junior teams Kyle Prior is at Vale of Clyde, Cameron Hambleton at Vale of Clyde and Ryan Clark at Kilwinning.

Did Ayr not have a similar thing going where they punted a load of youth team players on loan to a Junior club?

[callum-ayr]

40 minutes ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

*Junior teams Kyle Prior is at Vale of Clyde, Cameron Hambleton at Vale of Clyde and Ryan Clark at Kilwinning.

Did Ayr not have a similar thing going where they punted a load of youth team players on loan to a Junior club?

We helped out a Junior team last year where we sent a bulk of our 20s plus coaching staff.  It saved Lugar from going under and in time gave them the chance to re-build and go it themselves this year.  We also had players out at Talbot/Cumnock/Glenafton etc and have done the same this year.  It's a great way to get the younger players not only development game time, but game time against more physical players.  In the last 6 months we've seen Mick Wardrope and Craig McGuffie break into the first team (players that were at previous mentioned Juniors) and do not look out of place in the Championship, both physically and technically.  Already this season a winger has been in and out the first team and there are one or two more who may manage to make the step up if needed.  The 20s side is a lot younger this year with a lot leaving in the summer and some coming in from other clubs and the majority moving up from 17s team.  Would recommend it to teams like ourselves.  Even a better idea for the Colt Premiership teams than putting them into the SPFL!

Here's the article regarding last years set up with Lugar - http://www.aufa.org.uk/2016/03/ayr-united-football-academy-partnership-with-lugar-boswell/ 

[Jan Vojáček]

Just now, callum-ayr said:

We helped out a Junior team last year where we sent a bulk of our 20s plus coaching staff.  It saved Lugar from going under and in time gave them the chance to re-build and go it themselves this year.  We also had players out at Talbot/Cumnock/Glenafton etc and have done the same this year.  It's a great way to get the younger players not only development game time, but game time against more physical players.  In the last 6 months we've seen Mick Wardrope and Craig McGuffie break into the first team (players that were at previous mentioned Juniors) and do not look out of place in the Championship, both physically and technically.  Already this season a winger has been in and out the first team and there are one or two more who may manage to make the step up if needed.  The 20s side is a lot younger this year with a lot leaving in the summer and some coming in from other clubs and the majority moving up from 17s team.  Would recommend it to teams like ourselves.  Even a better idea for the Colt Premiership teams than putting them into the SPFL!

Here's the article regarding last years set up with Lugar - http://www.aufa.org.uk/2016/03/ayr-united-football-academy-partnership-with-lugar-boswell/ 

Cheers, aye that is a far better idea than U20s games and it's something I think a few of us have wanted to see done for a while. We've got Donald McCallum who is a cracking player, but just gets punted around a lot - a wee spell in the Juniors a couple of years ago would've worked wonders for his development. 

The Ayrshire District League needs an Ayr United Colts team imo.

[callum-ayr]

2 minutes ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Cheers, aye that is a far better idea than U20s games and it's something I think a few of us have wanted to see done for a while. We've got Donald McCallum who is a cracking player, but just gets punted around a lot - a wee spell in the Juniors a couple of years ago would've worked wonders for his development. 

The Ayrshire District League needs an Ayr United Colts team imo.

There's a club playing in it with a fair few Ayr United loanees so......  It does help that the Juniors is big down here in Ayrshire and we have the opportunity to send the players out on loan here.

In fairness, we seem to always have a decent setup at youth level.  Consistently in the semis and final of the Scottish Youth Cup over the last 5 seasons, beating the top teams and always challenging for the 20s title (will win it this year I reckon) and are far better than some of the full time teams in the Premier Development League, but that is a discussion for another topic on another day!

[BallochSonsFan]

Ayrshire is at an advantage when it comes to the juniors. There are few clubs in top level junior football that would make obvious choices for Dumbarton. I'd like to see some of our kids getting loaned to Pollok, but thats more because I have a soft spot for the Lok - mate is a Pollok fan. Vale of Leven isnt an option. Clydebank arent top level any more. Kirkie Rob Roy have the same problem.

Lowland league would probably mean Cumbernauld or East Kilbride for us. I'm not convinced that the quality is any better in that league than in the top tier of junior football.

[itzdrk]

We have youth set up until u17s. Then it's seem we are selecting the best ones and loaning them out to Lowland league teams which is actually better for them than u20s tbh. But it's still only 2 or 3 that have been kept on and loaned out.

Cheers. Not a huge difference between the two your 17s could play in the 20s tbh.

[The Moonster]

Just about anyone I've heard from that is involved in football thinks the U20s are a complete waste of time and talent. No competition, playing boys the same age or younger and when they get to the first team level the difference is huge. The lads on loan at Junior sides may come back and still not be good enough in the end but I've no doubt they'll be better players than they would have been with another year at U20s. I would love it if they all broke into the first team, I'll be straight on facebook laughing at these raging dads that kid on they're fans of the club to give it a massive GIRUY. 

[BallochSonsFan]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

Just about anyone I've heard from that is involved in football thinks the U20s are a complete waste of time and talent. No competition, playing boys the same age or younger and when they get to the first team level the difference is huge. The lads on loan at Junior sides may come back and still not be good enough in the end but I've no doubt they'll be better players than they would have been with another year at U20s. I would love it if they all broke into the first team, I'll be straight on facebook laughing at these raging dads that kid on they're fans of the club to give it a massive GIRUY. 

I agree Moonster.

Expecting kids to go from playing against people their own age to playing against fully grown men with years of experience is a big ask. Taking an 18 year old from youth football and throwing him into a game against seasoned professionals is a serious step up. All this nonsense about kids not playing in competitive fixtures - eventually they need to learn about winning and losing and an 18 year old rookie going up against a guy in his 30s who might be counting on a win bonus is coming up against an opponent who won't compromise.

It's all very well teaching kids technique but the there's more to football than technical ability. There's the mental side of the game that's just as important.

 

Comparing it to my other sport, in Canada any kid who is serious about having a career in pro hockey will leave home at 15 or 16, will be signed by a major junior team in either the Quebec, Ontario or Western major junior league and will be playing full contact competitive hockey from the age of 16 to 19, often in front of crowds of over 3000 people. They'll train every day. They live with billet families but its still a major commitment to leave home at that age. They don't molly coddle these kids. They teach them to be competitive sportsmen.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Ayrshire is at an advantage when it comes to the juniors. There are few clubs in top level junior football that would make obvious choices for Dumbarton. I'd like to see some of our kids getting loaned to Pollok, but thats more because I have a soft spot for the Lok - mate is a Pollok fan. Vale of Leven isnt an option. Clydebank arent top level any more. Kirkie Rob Roy have the same problem.

Lowland league would probably mean Cumbernauld or East Kilbride for us. I'm not convinced that the quality is any better in that league than in the top tier of junior football.

I watch the Vale on the odd occassion and whilst the standard is fairly poor, I reckon lads at around 16 or 17 would really benefit from playing first team for them. If they cope comfortably at that level to begin with then fire them out to a better junior side the next year, or even in January.

Since I heard we were patching the 20s I instantly thought a wee partnership with the Vale could be ideal for giving young lads game time. It would also be nice to see the Vale benefit from it.

[callum-ayr]

The thing with the 20s league is, a reserve league would make no difference to the set up, albeit just a different name.  There are really only 3 or 4 clubs out of 42 that could have a proper reserve team.  If Ayr and Partick Thistle reserves were to play tomorrow, I don't see there being a difference in the teams that would play if it were an u20s game.  U20s league matches can have up to 6 over age players, so teams can have older players playing in games.

[The Moonster]

13 minutes ago, callum-ayr said:

The thing with the 20s league is, a reserve league would make no difference to the set up, albeit just a different name.  There are really only 3 or 4 clubs out of 42 that could have a proper reserve team.  If Ayr and Partick Thistle reserves were to play tomorrow, I don't see there being a difference in the teams that would play if it were an u20s game.  U20s league matches can have up to 6 over age players, so teams can have older players playing in games.

I wasn't suggesting that a reserve league would be better (although I do think there is a case for that), just that what we're doing by now sending players to the juniors when they leave the U17s is actually a better way of working than keeping an U20s squad in the development league.

[callum-ayr]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

I wasn't suggesting that a reserve league would be better (although I do think there is a case for that), just that what we're doing by now sending players to the juniors when they leave the U17s is actually a better way of working than keeping an U20s squad in the development league.

Sorry, was just using the reserve league as an example as in terms of games for the parent club, it's only the other real option clubs have.

In theory, outwith a development league or a reserve league, there isn't much teams can do other than loan players out.  Colt teams in the junior game?  However, I can imagine that would be frowned upon like we are doing so with the idea of Colts in our leagues.