Sons' sorrow

[squeezeboxson]

1 hour ago, boagheidboab said:

Aitken is'nt with Dumbarton.Maybe we will get a manager who is. In the new era of guys who want to go places I am sure we can get better. Someone who will move on, but in their time with us be sincere and take it seriously. The owners need to take the management seriously. I believe we have a good team. It just needs someone who can think about it seriously

 

You're saying that Aitken and Faz don't take their job seriously??

[Jan Vojáček]

On the managerial subject, I looked up his stats this morning. They look like this:

P54 W14 D10 L30

At plenty of other clubs he would've been hounded by the support for a record like that, so I actually think our supporters have been extremely...ehm...supportive. Our away followings might not be great, but it's the same faces every other week and you very, very rarely hear him (or the team) getting any stick. Maybe we're all just numb to away defeats now or something 

[Mr.Blue]

We'll swap you aitken for dim juffy.

[sarti pooh]

After yesterday I think we really need to be starting Stevo. The guy is class. Defo not the fittest but his decision making is head and shoulders above the rest of the attackers who squandered a lot of good moves yesterday with their final ball.

[cedrick1]

I thought even in first half yesterday there wasn't much in it but goals we lost were slack .all game we allowed raith time to do what they want.

two wingers who don't cover back is too much of a luxury.

to neatly rescue it back was a bit of credit to the players.

i think Buccy would have escaped first booking if he hadn't moaned about throw minutes before when he could have been booked so no real complaints.

sons fans accross threads been a bit harsh overall solely on yesterday but I accept we need to pick up some points soon.

[pleslie99]

Iv been pretty patient with aitken when others have been calling for his head but that patience is wearing a bit thin. Our away record is horrific. We can't go 3 goals down before we get our finger out and start playing, it's happened twice this season and gives Stevie an opportunity to cover up the real issues.
We won't stay up on home form alone and even that's not good enough, we should be beating a crippled St Mirren side.
Stevie doesn't seem to know his best team and it shows, we have witnessed 1 win this season and it's no surprise we can't fill a bus.
The problem is, we have some horrible results and then we get 1 good win and we are made to think all is rosy (see Dundee Utd) then we are back to the status quo. I don't think we should bag Stevie yet but Much more like this and I will be calling for change.

[Silverton End]

6 hours ago, cedrick1 said:

I thought even in first half yesterday there wasn't much in it but goals we lost were slack .all game we allowed raith time to do what they want.

two wingers who don't cover back is too much of a luxury.

to neatly rescue it back was a bit of credit to the players.

i think Buccy would have escaped first booking if he hadn't moaned about throw minutes before when he could have been booked so no real complaints.

sons fans accross threads been a bit harsh overall solely on yesterday but I accept we need to pick up some points soon.

I don't think fans have been harsh, to start yesterday without 2 decent players in Stevenson & Stanton was baffling.

Unfortunately the League table now has a worrying/familiar look about it.

 

 

 

 

[squeezeboxson]

13 minutes ago, Silverton End said:

I don't think fans have been harsh, to start yesterday without 2 decent players in Stevenson & Stanton was baffling.

Unfortunately the League table now has a worrying/familiar look about it.

 

 

 

 

To be fair, Stevo had been pretty poor for the last couple of games and I don't think we can say Stanton is 'decent' when most of us have seen him in 1 1/2 games.

[Howlin' Wilf]

It must be October soon, yes that month in which almost every year the Sons support call for the head of the incumbent manager.

Sons are currently sit in 21st place in the SPFL, seven places behind Hibs, four places behind Dundee Utd and two places behind Dunfermline.

Each of the clubs mentioned have full time staff and both budgets and attendances in several multiples of ours. If you want a more successful team, choose another team - don't call for the manager to go.

He's doing his best.

[Jan Vojáček]

1 minute ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

It must be October soon, yes that month in which almost every year the Sons support call for the head of the incumbent manager.

Sons are currently sit in 21st place in the SPFL, seven places behind Hibs, four places behind Dundee Utd and two places behind Dunfermline.

Each of the clubs mentioned have full time staff and both budgets and attendances in several multiples of ours. If you want a more successful team, choose another team - don't call for the manager to go.

He's doing his best.

See to be honest though, I don't think the majority of our fans are being unrealistic in expecting us to have more points on the board by this point. Stevie himself targets 10 points a quarter and (certainly at the moment) it looks like we'll fail to get that figure. The fans don't have a right to expect us to challenging anywhere above, say, 7th position in this league. I do, however, think they have a right to expect the team they fire considerable amounts of money at supporting to have won more than just 1 of their last 14 games.

Of course he's doing his best. Just as Ian Murray, Alan Adamson, Jim Chapman, Gerry McCabe, Paul Martin etc etc all did their best when they were in charge of ourselves. 

Stevie is a weird one if you think about it. The results have been mental since he came in last year. There's been some truly memorable ones - I'd imagine I'll be telling the grandkids about the season we beat the Scottish Cup winners twice in the league, or the time we came from 3-0 with 10 minutes to go to draw 3-3. Or even Nade's hat-trick against Alloa! However there's also been more than a few horrendous carbon copy performances. Pretty much every away game we've played in the past year has followed the same pattern - surely there's something he, as our manager, could do to address that? I mean we've got a longer history than most in the game, and we're getting a wee bit close to an all time club record number of away games without a win.

Our fans seem to be mostly on his side. He has his fanatics - the 'Aitken's Army' troops if you will - who will never, ever doubt him I don't think. Almost like the way fans idolise certain players who can do no wrong. Then there's guys like me who are seeing trends repeating themselves all too often and are beginning to get concerned and genuinely consider not bothering travelling to away games. It's not glory hunting, it's realising that (for me, my Dad and my brother) to get to Dumfries for example and back will cost us (in fuel, entrance, pies, drinks, programmes etc) near enough £60 or £70 - Easter Road last season was close to £90 iirc. When you've seen us put in almost identical away performances 6 or 7 times in the space of a year you really start to wonder why you bother.

Personally I'd consider 8th to be a cracking achievement, but if relegation is to happen then I (along with most fans I'd imagine) wouldn't be too despondent as long as we put up a decent fight and don't end this cracking run with a whimper. Only time will tell if we manage that when we eventually do drop back down to League One. And it is a matter of when and not if. I don't think it's miserable to say that.

I also think we have a small number of fans (if that's the correct term) who enjoy the team failing so they can start firing off all the turmoil patter. They relish the defeats so they can appear all scathing and Simon Cowell-y. I don't really get the point in them (especially at home games where we seem to have plenty), but there you go. The 'sweetie rustlers' do appear to be disappearing, but they are still evident at some home games. Do they really think that shouting - after 20 minutes - "CHUCK IT AITKEN" is really going to help anything or anybody?

Last year I was asked by a friend if Stevie was the right guy for the job, I said I had no idea. Some weeks we produce performances that really take you aback and make you think we've got a cracking team all playing for a well respected young manager. Increasingly however we put in performances that make you wonder if the stonking performances were just flukes.

Anyway it's good to see Sons' Sorrow back up and in action!

[Howlin' Wilf]

40 minutes ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

See to be honest though, I don't think the majority of our fans are being unrealistic in expecting us to have more points on the board by this point. Stevie himself targets 10 points a quarter and (certainly at the moment) it looks like we'll fail to get that figure. The fans don't have a right to expect us to challenging anywhere above, say, 7th position in this league. I do, however, think they have a right to expect the team they fire considerable amounts of money at supporting to have won more than just 1 of their last 14 games. etc. etc.

Yes, some fair points.

However - Football isn't so rigid and linear that we can demand ten points a quarter. Correct refereeing decisions against Hibs would have earned a point. We haven't lost a game by more than one goal.

Time to cut the manager some slack.

[aftershocker]

Iv been pretty patient with aitken when others have been calling for his head but that patience is wearing a bit thin. Our away record is horrific. We can't go 3 goals down before we get our finger out and start playing, it's happened twice this season and gives Stevie an opportunity to cover up the real issues.
We won't stay up on home form alone and even that's not good enough, we should be beating a crippled St Mirren side.
Stevie doesn't seem to know his best team and it shows, we have witnessed 1 win this season and it's no surprise we can't fill a bus.
The problem is, we have some horrible results and then we get 1 good win and we are made to think all is rosy (see Dundee Utd) then we are back to the status quo. I don't think we should bag Stevie yet but Much more like this and I will be calling for change.

To be fair......rovers first two goals were both horrendous deflections, while the third was an unstoppable hit

Seems to me this is when the fans should be getting behind the team, not trying to get rid of the manager. This season IMHO was always going to be the toughest of the 5 in the championship due to us now clearly being the minnows. We are easily the favourites to go straight down

Both Saturdays game and the dunfermline game shows the team are playing for each other and the manager, and are still fighting even when the cause looks lost

So come on guys...let's fill the next bus

[The Moonster]

On 14/09/2016 at 14:54, The Moonster said:

 

Defeat on Saturday and we'll be back to our loathsome best though, fear not.

Well it's a week later than expected, but hello, doom and gloom, our old friend.

[optimistic]

13 hours ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

Yes, some fair points.

However - Football isn't so rigid and linear that we can demand ten points a quarter. Correct refereeing decisions against Hibs would have earned a point. We haven't lost a game by more than one goal.

Time to cut the manager some slack.

Our late goals against dunfermline and raith only hide the fact that both games we were three goals down.

 

I'm in a group of five who has for the most part, defended Stevie, there is one who is quick to shout "Chuck it aitken", but we have always shot him down, yes there has been some memorable results, but no way another club would put up with that away form, and I did say he should Chuck it last year at half time against rovers when we were three down, so happy to be proven wrong again. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

I've been pondering the current situation vis-à-vis Stevie Aitken, and whilst there's no doubt that he an Faz are doing all they can, a couple of things spring to mind.

I wonder if there is any sort of hangover from the Raith managerial vacancy when his name was apparently linked at one stage, and secondly I remain troubled by a remark he made at last season's POTY Dance when he revealed that he was advised by parties unstated 'not to touch the DFC job'.

Now if true, why would that be ?  Because we are a plucky wee club tilting at bigger clubs, or is this a particularly difficult club for anyone to be Manager ?  If it is the latter then that would be a worry indeed. 

[sonsanorak]

What makes us difficult might only be expectations.. I remember aitken mentioning that in his speech.  He was telling the story of how he discussed our approach to him with Faz and Faz was saying to speak us and hear what the board had to say and what expectations we had.  If we accepted we were likely to be fighting it out near the bottom then we would be reasonable, if we were looking to push on near the top then they would've felt those expectations were unreasonable and thanked us for our time.

i've not yet seen or heard any pressure from the board, but scrapping it out at the bottom can be difficult and frustrating for fans

[BallochSonsFan]

Expectation is a very important word for a club like Dumbarton. Exactly what should our expectations be?

We've probably been relegation favourites every season since we reached the 2nd tier. We could spend another 5 years in this league and that wouldn't change. We'll always be expected to struggle because we're a small team playing in a league against much bigger clubs. This is probably the most successful Dumbarton have been in a generation in terms of our actual league position.

What do the club expect? Do they expect us to be a Championship team? Do they expect a money-spinning cup run every year - to at least a stage where we might draw a bigger team for a pay day? What are their expectations for our youth development? Or our finances? Our fan base? Do they expect survival at all costs - at the cost of aesthetically pleasing football or an exciting cup run? I suspect that if you offered the club the choice of surviving in the 2nd tier or relegation softened by a Challenge Cup win then they'd forgo the tin of silver polish and a spot in the trophy cabinet for the prize of surviving in the 2nd tier.

Then there's the expectations of the fans. I'm not as frequent an away traveller as others due to my Saturday night commitments. Are we right to expect more than our dire away record? Should be expect more from our team against St Mirren at home? Or against a Hibs team playing well within itself and benefiting from a poor refereeing performance? Contrast our fortunes with Alloa - 2 draws against Rangers compared to our failing to take a point in 2 seasons and yet they went down and we stayed up. Is it the performance that matters or the outcome? Can we realistically be disappointed with the football we play at times if the result is finishing 8th or higher and staying in the division? I suspect we wouldn't lose many fans if we were relegated and that's part of the frustration that ,many fans feel: that our crowds aren't increasing despite our sustained participation in the Scottish 2nd tier.

Now any of those expectations - the demands of the club management or of the support - may or may not make Dumbarton an attractive proposition for managers. It's for the guy in the job to deal with them. I don't believe that our expectations from a football point of view would be particularly unreasonable and it may be an interesting question to ask what Stevie Aitken, or any Dumbarton manager, expects from the club? What did he expect over the summer? How closely did we meet those expectations and how is that translating to our performances and results?

Managing a club like Dumbarton can be a fantastic stepping stone for an ambitious young manager or it can become a miserable job for a cynical journeyman. Part of that may be down to the club or fan expectations, but the manager's own expectations have just as much of an impact. Perhaps we should be asking Aitken what he expects from this season, what he expected from last season, and if going a full 12 months without an away win fits in with his expectations, so long as at the end of the season we're sitting 8th and looking at yet another year in this division?

[Dynamo 2013]

Expectation is a very important word for a club like Dumbarton. Exactly what should our expectations be?

We've probably been relegation favourites every season since we reached the 2nd tier. We could spend another 5 years in this league and that wouldn't change. We'll always be expected to struggle because we're a small team playing in a league against much bigger clubs. This is probably the most successful Dumbarton have been in a generation in terms of our actual league position.

What do the club expect? Do they expect us to be a Championship team? Do they expect a money-spinning cup run every year - to at least a stage where we might draw a bigger team for a pay day? What are their expectations for our youth development? Or our finances? Our fan base? Do they expect survival at all costs - at the cost of aesthetically pleasing football or an exciting cup run? I suspect that if you offered the club the choice of surviving in the 2nd tier or relegation softened by a Challenge Cup win then they'd forgo the tin of silver polish and a spot in the trophy cabinet for the prize of surviving in the 2nd tier.

Then there's the expectations of the fans. I'm not as frequent an away traveller as others due to my Saturday night commitments. Are we right to expect more than our dire away record? Should be expect more from our team against St Mirren at home? Or against a Hibs team playing well within itself and benefiting from a poor refereeing performance? Contrast our fortunes with Alloa - 2 draws against Rangers compared to our failing to take a point in 2 seasons and yet they went down and we stayed up. Is it the performance that matters or the outcome? Can we realistically be disappointed with the football we play at times if the result is finishing 8th or higher and staying in the division? I suspect we wouldn't lose many fans if we were relegated and that's part of the frustration that ,many fans feel: that our crowds aren't increasing despite our sustained participation in the Scottish 2nd tier.

Now any of those expectations - the demands of the club management or of the support - may or may not make Dumbarton an attractive proposition for managers. It's for the guy in the job to deal with them. I don't believe that our expectations from a football point of view would be particularly unreasonable and it may be an interesting question to ask what Stevie Aitken, or any Dumbarton manager, expects from the club? What did he expect over the summer? How closely did we meet those expectations and how is that translating to our performances and results?

Managing a club like Dumbarton can be a fantastic stepping stone for an ambitious young manager or it can become a miserable job for a cynical journeyman. Part of that may be down to the club or fan expectations, but the manager's own expectations have just as much of an impact. Perhaps we should be asking Aitken what he expects from this season, what he expected from last season, and if going a full 12 months without an away win fits in with his expectations, so long as at the end of the season we're sitting 8th and looking at yet another year in this division?

Time for a lie down and 2 paracetamol!

[Dynamo 2013]

I've been pondering the current situation vis-à-vis Stevie Aitken, and whilst there's no doubt that he an Faz are doing all they can, a couple of things spring to mind.

I wonder if there is any sort of hangover from the Raith managerial vacancy when his name was apparently linked at one stage, and secondly I remain troubled by a remark he made at last season's POTY Dance when he revealed that he was advised by parties unstated 'not to touch the DFC job'.

Now if true, why would that be ?  Because we are a plucky wee club tilting at bigger clubs, or is this a particularly difficult club for anyone to be Manager ?  If it is the latter then that would be a worry indeed. 

I would assume he means that you are expected to be relegated with less resources than most. So therefore you are putting yourself under pressure with the threat of relegation on a good CV [emoji3]

[pleslie99]

The expectation I have of my team is that they are competitive and when I pay money to go see them I feel like I have watched them put 100% effort in. Can you say that's been the case for the away games in the last year? Ok maybe at home we look a bit different but home form alone won't save you or win you the league depending on your expectations!
Us asking for the managers head just won't happen. The board will expect Stevie to keep us up, if he does that it will be a success in their eyes, regardless of how ugly it is. He will only be sacked if we go down, even then I'm not convinced he would be!