Sons' sorrow

[Nowhereman]

19 minutes ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Dwindling home supports, talk of reduced budgets, owners who are only in it for the land. Dying may be a bit far, but the club does look to have some fairly big health issues.

Compared with when?

[Jan Vojáček]

21 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

Compared with when?

I would take a reasonable guess and say home gates are down on last season, and quite possibly a couple of seasons before that (eg the fairly poor last season with Murray and the season we finished 5th with Kane/Nish/Fleming/Megginson etc firing in goals). I don't have anyway of backing that up I'm afraid, so feel free to tell me if I'm wrong. Things just don't seem particularly busy this season. Even for the Hibs and Dundee United games the home end wasn't anywhere near full. I understand it too, it's expensive to watch us and (even with a season ticket at the moment) I struggle to muster up the enthusiasm for home games.

How many times have you said to a friend that they should come to the Sons game with you, then tell them the price and they respond in shock. It's not the club's fault. Our prices are standard with the league, but with Ice Hockey and TV games all competing with us I just don't think a lot of people can justify turning up on the day and paying at the gate to get in. Especially with the football that is served up. I remember PATG numbers being discussed a while back on here, and they were apparently low. Is that a surprise to you? It's quite unusual to see new faces at games these days - or maybe I'm just getting old and know everyone now!

[Benito Robles]

Dumbarton FC really does not need a new stadium in which to operate. The club's owners on the other hand may need the propsed move to make some money for themselves. Two entirely different scenarios. I have an affection for the Sons. Their fans and trust members were most supportive at at time when my own club was going through turmoil and I'd hate for Dumbarton supporters to be blinded by fancy drawings and their hearing affected by proclamations of salvation with a new home.

There is no doubt that the Sons are punching above their weight by operating in the Championship. It can't be easy to balance the books when income levels have to be low given that attendances are hardly breaking through the current capacity barrier. That said, there must be decent revenue coming from the fact that there are smashing facilities already at the Rock in terms of function suites. When i worked with WDC, there were regular seminars/meetings at the stadium and I'm sure there will be others who use the facilities. Added to the regular bookings for parties/weddings etc, fiscally things can't be too bad.

My advice is to be vigilant, be questioning and don't let rhetoric fool you. 

[Silverton End]

16 minutes ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

I would take a reasonable guess and say home gates are down on last season, and quite possibly a couple of seasons before that (eg the fairly poor last season with Murray and the season we finished 5th with Kane/Nish/Fleming/Megginson etc firing in goals). I don't have anyway of backing that up I'm afraid, so feel free to tell me if I'm wrong. Things just don't seem particularly busy this season. Even for the Hibs and Dundee United games the home end wasn't anywhere near full. I understand it too, it's expensive to watch us and (even with a season ticket at the moment) I struggle to muster up the enthusiasm for home games.

How many times have you said to a friend that they should come to the Sons game with you, then tell them the price and they respond in shock. It's not the club's fault. Our prices are standard with the league, but with Ice Hockey and TV games all competing with us I just don't think a lot of people can justify turning up on the day and paying at the gate to get in. Especially with the football that is served up. I remember PATG numbers being discussed a while back on here, and they were apparently low. Is that a surprise to you? It's quite unusual to see new faces at games these days - or maybe I'm just getting old and know everyone now!

This.

You can hardly give away a spare season ticket for a game, if someone can't manage to make a home game these days.

For what it's worth, a play around with google maps indicates 0.5miles from Dumbarton East train station to our current Stadium. From Dalreoch train station to Dalmoak Re-Cycling Centre is 1 mile. Not sure who measured out the distance to our proposed new DalmoakDome, but they're out by half a mile (at least) 

[George Parr]

Yeah I'm fairly certain a stroll to the station from the new grun will be longer and more hazardous than current arrangements.

[Jan Vojáček]

Where is the original post about the distance anyway? I remember reading it earlier on, but I couldn't find it on my phone.

[Silverton End]

1 minute ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Where is the original post about the distance anyway? I remember reading it earlier on, but I couldn't find it on my phone.

I'm pretty sure it was said at the last consultation, 2 yrs ago in the Abbotsford. 

[sergie's no1 fan]

Must admit when we were in different leagues and we'd be playing on a Sunday and The Sons were at home on a Saturday or had a midweek game and I fancied going to a game the walk up prices haven't ever grabbed me enough to entice me across the Erskine Bridge, but it's been mentioned they are in line with the rest of Scottish Football. I certainly wouldn't expect them to drop the prices for someone who doesn't support the club.

 

[The Moonster]

34 minutes ago, Benito Robles said:

Dumbarton FC really does not need a new stadium in which to operate. The club's owners on the other hand may need the propsed move to make some money for themselves. Two entirely different scenarios. I have an affection for the Sons. Their fans and trust members were most supportive at at time when my own club was going through turmoil and I'd hate for Dumbarton supporters to be blinded by fancy drawings and their hearing affected by proclamations of salvation with a new home.

There is no doubt that the Sons are punching above their weight by operating in the Championship. It can't be easy to balance the books when income levels have to be low given that attendances are hardly breaking through the current capacity barrier. That said, there must be decent revenue coming from the fact that there are smashing facilities already at the Rock in terms of function suites. When i worked with WDC, there were regular seminars/meetings at the stadium and I'm sure there will be others who use the facilities. Added to the regular bookings for parties/weddings etc, fiscally things can't be too bad.

My advice is to be vigilant, be questioning and don't let rhetoric fool you. 

One of the biggest things for me with the promised revenue from functions etc. is that we aren't actually realising the potential of our current facilities. If the board had a track record of making these tyes of things a success I'd find it easier to get on board with the idea, but given that most feedback from the general public include phrases such as "difficult to deal with" or "not very welcoming" I just can't accet that this new venture will be plain sailing.

Good comments though, Benito, and ones I hope all Sons fans heed.

[Benito Robles]

8 minutes ago, sergie's no1 fan said:

Must admit when we were in different leagues and we'd be playing on a Sunday and The Sons were at home on a Saturday or had a midweek game and I fancied going to a game the walk up prices haven't ever grabbed me enough to entice me across the Erskine Bridge, but it's been mentioned they are in line with the rest of Scottish Football. I certainly wouldn't expect them to drop the prices for someone who doesn't support the club.

 

Pricing is always an issue. It can't be avoided as a talking point. For most clubs, PATG income is a major source of revenue and will be factored into budget projections. It's £18 at the Sons for an adult to attend. For me that's a lot of money. However to drop the price to say £11 that would mean the club would need 2 people to attend instead of 1 to make up the difference. Any club would be foolish to reduce pricing in the hope of attracting more bodies. Statiscally and evidentially it does not work. Projecting this to a new stadium, which will surely have deeper running costs, the DFC owners are taking a gamble. That said looking at it from the outside this new stadium project is clearly an exercise in making money for them with the football club as a convenient vehicle. 

[Nowhereman]

57 minutes ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

I would take a reasonable guess and say home gates are down on last season, and quite possibly a couple of seasons before that (eg the fairly poor last season with Murray and the season we finished 5th with Kane/Nish/Fleming/Megginson etc firing in goals). I don't have anyway of backing that up I'm afraid, so feel free to tell me if I'm wrong. Things just don't seem particularly busy this season. Even for the Hibs and Dundee United games the home end wasn't anywhere near full. I understand it too, it's expensive to watch us and (even with a season ticket at the moment) I struggle to muster up the enthusiasm for home games.

How many times have you said to a friend that they should come to the Sons game with you, then tell them the price and they respond in shock. It's not the club's fault. Our prices are standard with the league, but with Ice Hockey and TV games all competing with us I just don't think a lot of people can justify turning up on the day and paying at the gate to get in. Especially with the football that is served up. I remember PATG numbers being discussed a while back on here, and they were apparently low. Is that a surprise to you? It's quite unusual to see new faces at games these days - or maybe I'm just getting old and know everyone now!

Home gates are much of a muchness over the last few years. Maybe a slight increase in the season we finished 5th. But compared with last year there isnt much difference. And anyone who responds in shock to the prices obviously doesn't go to football even irregularly.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Nowhereman said:

Home gates are much of a muchness over the last few years. Maybe a slight increase in the season we finished 5th. But compared with last year there isnt much difference. And anyone who responds in shock to the prices obviously doesn't go to football even irregularly.

Aren't those exactly the tyes of folk we should be looking to get down to games though?

[O'Kelly Isley III]

Over the last year or so the club’s outgoings have been outstripping the income by some way and Directors are having to provide loan amounts to allow it to meet its day-to-day commitments.  By ‘Directors’ I understand that to mean the local guys as opposed to the Brabco nominee, and I doubt very much if Brabco have injected any sizeable working capital during their period of ownership.

 

I also doubt whether match-day hospitality, functions and catering contribute any significant funding to DFC.  Ditto gate money, save perhaps for visiting supporters offsetting the increasingly grim home attendance figures.  As for Nowhereman’s contention about crowds (as distinct from home support), these may have fluctuated down the years but players and their agents demands have seen wages rocket  to an increasingly unsustainable level.  If you continue that trajectory there can be only one outcome.

 

Brabco’s answer to all of this, rather than conduct a measured, planned, budgeted review and subsequent action plan based on the current location, is to embark on a wildly ambitious and I believe wholly undeliverable scheme in an awful location.  How in the name of God, given what I’ve written above, are we to proceed  from the present poor state of affairs to generating the turnover required to service both the team and this new stadium; it is fantasy stuff, utter fantasy.  And their primary intent is not football-related. 

 

There’s a whole lot of things that could be addressed right where we are, Frank’s changing of the guard would assist in that process.      

 

Benito Robles and his team have been thro this sort of stuff, we’d do well to heed his caution.

[sergie's no1 fan]

1 hour ago, Benito Robles said:

Pricing is always an issue. It can't be avoided as a talking point. For most clubs, PATG income is a major source of revenue and will be factored into budget projections. It's £18 at the Sons for an adult to attend. For me that's a lot of money. However to drop the price to say £11 that would mean the club would need 2 people to attend instead of 1 to make up the difference. Any club would be foolish to reduce pricing in the hope of attracting more bodies. Statiscally and evidentially it does not work. Projecting this to a new stadium, which will surely have deeper running costs, the DFC owners are taking a gamble. That said looking at it from the outside this new stadium project is clearly an exercise in making money for them with the football club as a convenient vehicle. 

Agreed. It can't be avoided but what is the solution? Maybe clubs could come to some sort of arrangement where if you have a season ticket it can get you into matches involving other clubs at a heavily discounted price? Obviously that goes against regular PATG punters at clubs but it could add numbers onto crowds and the clubs wouldn't be losing any money out of it.

[The Moonster]

35 minutes ago, sergie's no1 fan said:

Agreed. It can't be avoided but what is the solution? Maybe clubs could come to some sort of arrangement where if you have a season ticket it can get you into matches involving other clubs at a heavily discounted price? Obviously that goes against regular PATG punters at clubs but it could add numbers onto crowds and the clubs wouldn't be losing any money out of it.

It's not just price in my opinion, it's the experience. I've never been to an Ice Hockey game, nor do I intend to, but by all accounts it seems the whole experience of the game is something different to your average football match.  That may be because Ice Hockey is relatively new in the mainstream in Scotland and the novelty hasn't worn off yet, but from where I'm standing it looks like the organisers actually take some time to see what will bring fans, and more importantly families, into games.  What does a matchday experience at any given ground in Scotland consist of?  Pay your money, watch the football and go home - don't even think about standing up and enjoying yourself.  There will be some clubs who do things right but on the whole there's absolutely nothing to get families along to games.

A couple of ideas off the top of my head - What about having some sort of event on in the bar pre-match, such as a band or some solo singers playing a few songs? I could be wrong but plenty local acts will be happy to show up and play for nothing if they've got upwards of 300 people listening to them. What about getting local community groups down and giving them a table in the function room to exhibit what they do and try and get more members/volunteers/investment in whatever they do (I note that at Dumbarton we do this now and then but I wonder if perhaps this can be widened/grown)?  What about having half time shows for kids to come on and take a penalty or something similar? We've done this on occasion so perhaps it's not feasible to do it every week, but I feel there are plenty of avenues to be explored (if these particular avenues already been explored then fair enough). Now those ideas might not be highly original, or even bring fans pouring back to watch Dumbarton FC, but what it will do is show that the club is a willing part of the community, a family friendly place which offers a fun way to kill a few hours on a Saturday, regardless of the level of football on display. That could do a lot for a club in the long run.

At Dumbarton we've seen that success on the pitch does not bring fans to the game, for me, embedding the club in the community is the only other route to building the fan base.

Edited November 15, 2016 by The Moonster

[Boghead ranter]

My info may be out of date, as I haven't been for years, but the Scottish Rocks basketball team used to have a free throw challenge at half time.  Kids would pay £1 and take their turn at throwing a free throw (most couldn't even reach the basket) but there would be a massive line of kids involved.  The winner was the last one to not miss, & got a t shirt, the club must've taken in between £50 and £100 each game (on top of what the child paid to get into the game).  Plus, those kids weren't there on their own, they all had at least 1 adult with them.

Maybe we could do similar with a penalty challenge?  At least it would give Mark Brown something to do to justify his wage*.

 

*Mind you, the second half would always be a delayed start, I bet even kids would have a high success rate from the spot with him in goals.

[aftershocker]

My info may be out of date, as I haven't been for years, but the Scottish Rocks basketball team used to have a free throw challenge at half time.  Kids would pay £1 and take their turn at throwing a free throw (most couldn't even reach the basket) but there would be a massive line of kids involved.  The winner was the last one to not miss, & got a t shirt, the club must've taken in between £50 and £100 each game (on top of what the child paid to get into the game).  Plus, those kids weren't there on their own, they all had at least 1 adult with them.

Maybe we could do similar with a penalty challenge?  At least it would give Mark Brown something to do to justify his wage*.

 

*Mind you, the second half would always be a delayed start, I bet even kids would have a high success rate from the spot with him in goals.

They do this at St Mirren

[Boghead ranter]

1 hour ago, aftershocker said:

They do this at St Mirren

Yeah? And they're doing all ri..........oh, never mind.

[maddog 1965]

Over the last year or so the club’s outgoings have been outstripping the income by some way and Directors are having to provide loan amounts to allow it to meet its day-to-day commitments.  By ‘Directors’ I understand that to mean the local guys as opposed to the Brabco nominee, and I doubt very much if Brabco have injected any sizeable working capital during their period of ownership.

 

I also doubt whether match-day hospitality, functions and catering contribute any significant funding to DFC.  Ditto gate money, save perhaps for visiting supporters offsetting the increasingly grim home attendance figures.  As for Nowhereman’s contention about crowds (as distinct from home support), these may have fluctuated down the years but players and their agents demands have seen wages rocket  to an increasingly unsustainable level.  If you continue that trajectory there can be only one outcome.

 

Brabco’s answer to all of this, rather than conduct a measured, planned, budgeted review and subsequent action plan based on the current location, is to embark on a wildly ambitious and I believe wholly undeliverable scheme in an awful location.  How in the name of God, given what I’ve written above, are we to proceed  from the present poor state of affairs to generating the turnover required to service both the team and this new stadium; it is fantasy stuff, utter fantasy.  And their primary intent is not football-related. 

 

There’s a whole lot of things that could be addressed right where we are, Frank’s changing of the guard would assist in that process.      

 

Benito Robles and his team have been thro this sort of stuff, we’d do well to heed his caution.

You talk about outgoings surely the club seems to be carrying a good few players who are getting a good wage for no contribution to the club

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

You talk about outgoings surely the club seems to be carrying a good few players who are getting a good wage for no contribution to the club

We are, that's down to the gaffer. He gets allocated a budget and it's his job to spend it wisely. If we end up lumped with shite there's not much we can do unless they are willing to move elsewhere for what would most likely be a pay cut (someone has to want them for that to happen) or be happy enough to cancel their contract (massively unlikely and I don't blame them).

Stevo and Mark Brown are the worst offenders. We are paying Mark Brown what will be a healthy wage to sit in the stands every single week. Stevo was our 'marquee' signing and his wages could probably fund another 2 decent players who would contribute more than he does. The warning signs were there, but a lot of us had hope Stevie could get him fit and firing. In hindsight fairly average performances were considered 'progress' with him, simply because we were so desperate for it to work out. In reality he has had one good performance against Dundee Utd and one good 15 min spell against Raith. Absolutely nowhere near good enough and it makes me wonder why Stevie took such a risk on a guy who had just completed a bang average spell in League 1 and by all accounts hadn't shown anything of note with Partick previous to that.