Independence - how would you vote?

[Pink Freud]

That's close to how I think about it, though I still think the vote can be won.

What we should keep in mind is all the positive things that are being achieved simply through the debate itself.

The Union survives by not being examined or thought about in any detail. When people are made to look at it and think about what it is and whom it serves... it weakens it. Unavoidably. Same thing happens with the monarchy, or religion, or even Scientology (not that I'm comparing the Union to that, it's just an example).

Anyways, we were never ever meant to reach this point. And here we are.

BTW, the UK Government is refusing to release the latest version of the National Register of Assets.

Not sure whether it's to stop us calculating our share, or if they just don't want anyone to know how much public property they've already flogged off at bargain-bin prices.

That's a damn fine post. I was absolutely pro Union until about a year ago, and for reasons of the heart, not the head. Generational stuff, shared history, all that. But the more the Union is examined, the more it becomes apparent that the establishment in England doesn;t give a single, flying f**k for anything outside the home counties other than their country houses. Likewise, as our politicians lost conviction for career opportunity, there was literally no hope for significant Westminster reform. It's a shame, but there it is.

[MassiveFanDan]

Thing that made me laugh most at Hammond's speech was when he said a Scottish Defence Force would have trouble attracting soldiers from the UK Army, and none of them will want to transfer over.

He must've forgotten that he's laying off 20 000 UK defence personnel over the next decade - that's a lot of unemployed sojers that'll be kicking about. A large pool of reserve labour you could say - and of course these army job cuts will hit Scotland heaviest because he wants to disband the Scottish Regiments.

The Strategic Defence and Security Review, published in October, outlined
plans to cut the military budget by 7.5 per cent over five years.

The Army will be slashed to its smallest size since the Boer War, 131 years
ago, with a staggering 17,000 regular soldiers are being axed, leaving
Britain reliant on a "Dad's Army" of reservists.

While the review revealed the RAF will be cut by 5,000 from 44,000 to 39,000
personnel, each as part of a cost-cutting exercise which also saw the
cancellation of equipment including Nimrod MRA4 reconnaissance planes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8790897/Defence-cuts-the-facts.html

A lot of these guys and girls will be Scottish - and a lot of them will be looking for an army to be in.

[Gordon EF]

The army/navy stuff is complete nonsense. An independent Scotland could quite easily cut defence spending and have a perfectly adequate military without the need for significant job losses. The evidence for that is that we put proportionately more into the Uk treasuray than we get back, we put in proportionately more to the UK armed forces than we get back (in terms of where jobs/funding goes) and similarly sized European countries have perfectly adequate armed forces whislt spending less than we do and still contribute to joint international military 'efforts'.

The subject of the military is a pretty strong argument for independence IMO. Anyone using it as an argument for the union is a moron or simply clutching at straws.

[10 CC ICT]

...and your point is...

Why would I vote to pay £824 to a foreign government annually?

[JogaBonito]

I could do a lot with £824, ta muchly.

The number of times I hear people counter with "But the GERS doesn't paint the full picture" and "the SNP are just using fudged numbers" or "you're obviously biased/you're working for the yes campaign/ you're some sort of SNP political activist" is ridiculous.

Yet when you ask them to produce facts and figures, they never do.

[Davi3j]

Why would I vote to pay £824 to a foreign government annually?

foreign?, i'm not following you...when would you be voting to pay £824 to a foreign government...sorry if I'm being a bit simple here but I just dont follow you

edit for spelling

Umm yeah I'm having a slow day.I think I got your reasoning now

[Mr Rational]

There's been a poll done, I think for the CND, mainly asking about trident but also about Independence. From what my twitter is saying, some no's have went to undecided, some undecided'd have went to both yes and no and that the yes vote never budged.

I think it was 52% no, yes was 39%, the remainder undecided. Will try and get a link later on.

[10 CC ICT]

The number of times I hear people counter with "But the GERS doesn't paint the full picture" and "the SNP are just using fudged numbers" or "you're obviously biased/you're working for the yes campaign/ you're some sort of SNP political activist" is ridiculous.

Yet when you ask them to produce facts and figures, they never do.

I am guilty of all the highlighted above but as you say they can't provide a counter argument or provide supporting figures to suggest the GERS figures are wrong.

[xbl]

Newsnet are running it:

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/6927-trident-poll-shows-qhuge-opportunityq-for-independence-campaign

The poll also asked how respondents would vote if there was a referendum on Scottish independence tomorrow. In response to the question "Should Scotland be an independent country", 33% were in favour, 52% against, with 15% don't no. The poll found that opposition to Trident was almost as great amongst those intending to vote No as it was amongst those intending to vote Yes.

[xbl]

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/6931-cnd-poll-shows-some-shifts-on-independence-but-who-and-which-way

A detailed analysis of the numbers here, demonstrating the level of intellectual honesty that is missing from the Unionist side of the debate.

[10 CC ICT]

Newsnet are running it:

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/6927-trident-poll-shows-qhuge-opportunityq-for-independence-campaign

What I love about the No camp instilling fear into the electorate is that they won't be motivated to vote at all.

Oh no I'm no voting! Fear! Uncertainty! Leave me alone!

[renton]

What this shows is that Yes scotland really needs to target the C-D Labour voters, and if there is any pro-indy sentiment in Labour it has to come out of it's shell.

[Mr Rational]

Labour for Indy are targeting the heartlands as we speak, I hope they aren't all talk....

[H_B]

What this shows is that Yes scotland really needs to target the C-D Labour voters, and if there is any pro-indy sentiment in Labour it has to come out of it's shell.

What it shows is that Yes has no chance of winning.

[xbl]

What it shows is that Yes has no chance of winning.

Why do you Unionists keep repeating this mantra over and over? Your fellow Unionists Tryfield and Reynard also keep clicking their heels together and constantly repeating the same thing. What is the point? What does it bring to the conversation?

[10 CC ICT]

Thing that made me laugh most at Hammond's speech was when he said a Scottish Defence Force would have trouble attracting soldiers from the UK Army, and none of them will want to transfer over.

He must've forgotten that he's laying off 20 000 UK defence personnel over the next decade - that's a lot of unemployed sojers that'll be kicking about. A large pool of reserve labour you could say - and of course these army job cuts will hit Scotland heaviest because he wants to disband the Scottish Regiments.

A lot of these guys and girls will be Scottish - and a lot of them will be looking for an army to be in.

ANGUS ROBERTSON RESPONDS TO DEFENCE SPEECH

The Defence Secretary Philip Hammond made his speech to the Royal Society in

Edinburgh this morning. It follows last week's Basing Review announcements in

which the

coalition broke clear commitments to Scotland and made several still

unxeplained

u-turns.

SNP Westminster leader and Defence Spokesman, Angus Robertson MP commented

:

“It was too much to hope that on one of his very rare visits to Scotland Philip

Hammond might want to explain why the coalition reneged on all its commitments

in the basing review last week . He should have seen it as an opportunity

to apologise for the broken promises and u-turns made over the deployment of up

to 7,000 troops which turned into just 600.

“You could be forgiven for thinking that he might want to come and eat humble

pie for all the dissembling and distortions. He may even have taken

a rare moment to explain why he thinks it is a good idea to spend billions and

billions of pounds dumping weapons of mass destruction on the Clyde

despite massive opposition from all sections of Scottish society.

“Not a hope. He came to attack the SNP and Scotland - something he could easily

have done from his office in London, and he could have saved the taxpayers a

return ticket. He came to insult Scottish service personnel and

demean his office by making jokes about Scottish defence needs. People

will make their own judgements about the wisdom of making that kind of speech

when the reality is it his government that has been part of a massive defence

underspend of over £7 billion pounds in Scotland in the last ten years alone,

and has cut the defence footprint in Scotland relentlessly over the

years. It is his government that has made a volte face over all its promises .

No one else to blame .

"The truth is that independence offers the attractive full-rank career

prospects in Scotland which is impossible with the current set-up. For too long

Scots in the UK Armed Forces have had to spend their entire careers outside

Scotland owing to postings or limited options owing to their rank or

specialism. This will change significantly for the better after independence.

"Service personnel will have much greater

certainty about their location in Scotland, giving a bonus to defence dependent

communities. Domestic operations, training at home and with neighbours and

allies as well as international participation in UN sanctioned peace-keeping

missions will guarantee an attractive career path.’’

foreign?, i'm not following you...when would you be voting to pay £824 to a foreign government...sorry if I'm being a bit simple here but I just dont follow you

edit for spelling

By voting no in 2014?

[Reynard]

Why do you Unionists keep repeating this mantra over and over? Your fellow Unionists Tryfield and Reynard also keep clicking their heels together and constantly repeating the same thing. What is the point? What does it bring to the conversation?

Why not?

If we didn't then this thread would turn into the sort of circle jerk for nats it was all day today. Its quite good just to pop the balloon on a daily basis.

I quite enjoy it.

[Davi3j]

By voting no in 2014?

yeah, sorry mate, I was having a slow day

[Mr Rational]

Hammond's been going on about trident, Russia and a whole loads of other shite this afternoon.

As others have said, he's a cross between Dr Strangelove and Kenny Everett.

[xbl]

Why not?

If we didn't then this thread would turn into the sort of circle jerk for nats it was all day today. Its quite good just to pop the balloon on a daily basis.

I quite enjoy it.

Why though? Do you think anyone is going to go "my god, you're right! I've been wasting my time!". No. So if it changes nothing, then how is it "popping the balloon"? It is the no campaign in miniature. Pointless, meaningless, utterly without substance, and relying on constant repetition.

You could try some intellectual honesty and criticising your fellow Unionists. As you've seen independence supporters can disagree with each other, and yet you seem to 100% agree with everything every one of your fellow Unionists on here and in the media says.