Independence - how would you vote?

[archie guevara]

It's ironic that the SNPs best weapons towards independence appear to be quintessentially British.

Scotland is British.

300 years of Union cannot be swept under the carpet.

Except the monarchy was Scottish at one point until the Dutch and Germans were parachuted in.

[Lambie's Pigeon Feed]

I still don't really understand why so many politicians and media outlets are so for staying in the union.

The obvious answer would be self interest but how much in their interest is it? Not enough to peddle this much bullshit and completely discredit themselves in the process?

As for the serfs that are actually campaigning for better together, why? I can understand people being apprehensive but to actually campaign for it, why, nobody can be happy with the country right now surely?

It doesn't make a great deal of sense.

[archie guevara]

I still don't really understand why so many politicians and media outlets are so for staying in the union.

The obvious answer would be self interest but how much in their interest is it? Not enough to peddle this much bullshit and completely discredit themselves in the process?

As for the serfs that are actually campaigning for better together, why? I can understand people being apprehensive but to actually campaign for it, why, nobody can be happy with the country right now surely?

It doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Join the club. I'm genuinely bemused at why anyone who holds themselves out to be a socialist can actively campaign for Better Together.

[the jambo-rocker]

I still don't really understand why so many politicians and media outlets are so for staying in the union.

The obvious answer would be self interest but how much in their interest is it? Not enough to peddle this much bullshit and completely discredit themselves in the process?

As for the serfs that are actually campaigning for better together, why? I can understand people being apprehensive but to actually campaign for it, why, nobody can be happy with the country right now surely?

It doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Probably for the same reasons that most people are still in the maybe camp. Self preservation.

I don't think a good majority of the electorite, or even media for that matter understand what independence could potentially mean. With the union they already know they're getting.

EDIT: Or at least think they know what they're getting.

[Colkitto]

I was having a wee blether with someone yesterday about this, Cameron either is secretely wanting Scotland to bugger off, or he genuinely is brain dead. I suspect the latter.

One thing about your post - if the PM of the 'United Kingdom' can't come up here and campaign, that tells you a hell of a lot about the actual union. He should be able to come up and take part in debates, he should be able to come up and campaign, but it is looking more and more likely that he can't.

A couple of questions for the unionists - even if we lose the referendum, why has the union allowed Scotland to get to this? And if we are such an economic basket case where no-one will trade with us, why has this been allowed to happen?

I think it says it all when the Prime Minister of the UK can go walk about in Martyr's Square in Libya a couple of months ago but cannot go walk about in George Square in Scotland

[Savage Henry]

At the risk of sounding dull, I dont think mocking female politicians based on their photos is very fair. They face enough sexism as it is, and without doubt in the case of Lamont, there is enough else to mock her for! I think making fun of her looking terrifying in artwork is one thing, but photos, not so much!

Indeed. That picture of her walking away from the (American?) ned is embarrassing for whoever photoshopped it. Terrible, pointless single-issue art.

I've had a couple of spats with that particular nutter on twitter. He's not a poster on here is he?

Peter Dow used to post on here. He advocates an independent Scotland taking unilateral, pre-emptive military action against Germany, for some reason vaguely to do with Nuclear weapon capability. He also wants Condaleeza Rice to be honorary leader of an independent, socialist Scotland. And then there's his dating website.... Like a certain poster on P&B, he's genuinely unwell and it's gone way beyond the stage of point and laugh.

one simple reason- he'd lose.

whatever people think of Salmonmd, few if any UK politicians can touch him in debate. William Hague is probabaly a better orator, but in terms of rough n tumble knockabout Salmond is ahead of everyone else IMO:

That said Cameron's position is a joke...why was he up here in the first place if not to lend a hand to the pro-UNion campaign? Even he finally seems to have twigged that the more he and his ilk come up here, the more support for independence goes up.

I'm not as impressed as you are with Salmond's oratory skills, but it's unquestionably a good thing that Cameron isn't debating him. As Cameron himself says, this is an entirely Scottish decision, it is the role of the Scottish Better Together campaign to defend their position, if Cameron waded in the same Yes folk who want him to debate would accuse him of interfering. I'm actually surprised - and pleased - by how little he's had to say on the matter. Things may change before too long, but for the moment he seems to content to treat this as entirely devolved issue. He's here because as things stand he's the prime minister of this country. He's not popular in Scotland, obviously, but support for independence doesn't go up just because he visits, it's the same people shouting louder.

[Wee Bully]

It's ironic that the SNPs best weapons towards independence appear to be quintessentially British.

Scotland is British.

300 years of Union cannot be swept under the carpet.

"Quintessentially British" you say? Is this you outing yourself?

[Savage Henry]

Probably for the same reasons that most people are still in the maybe camp. Self preservation.

I don't think a good majority of the electorite, or even media for that matter understand what independence could potentially mean. With the union they already know they're getting.

EDIT: Or at least think they know what they're getting.

Self-interest in this case will determine the outcome. Which set-up will be most beneficial for me as an individual, and for my family. This is how the Yes vote can win. By demonstrating that the state of Scotland will be a better basis for my prosperity than the current system. It won't win any votes by playing the emotive Braveheart nationalistic card. Don't treat "the media" as some homogenous decision making entity though.

I think it says it all when the Prime Minister of the UK can go walk about in Martyr's Square in Libya a couple of months ago but cannot go walk about in George Square in Scotland

It says a great deal about a lot of things. Not necessarily all about Cameron, but about the level of political discourse as a whole. If a politician can't walk around a Scottish city for fear of violence, it shows just how deep the antipathy is towards politicians. Salmond doesn't do it either. Look what happened to Two Jags Prescott. It's a bit disingenuous to say Cameron went for a walk about in central Tripoli all by himself though; there will have been tens of heavily armed body guards away from the cameras. Also, Martyr's square is pretty plush.

[DeeGas]

Join the club. I'm genuinely bemused at why anyone who holds themselves out to be a socialist can actively campaign for Better Together.

"Better together----"Union".

They go together.

I'm disappointed that some Scottish working class are considering to leave their English brothers and sisters behind and build an ugly border!

[the jambo-rocker]

Self-interest in this case will determine the outcome. Which set-up will be most beneficial for me as an individual, and for my family. This is how the Yes vote can win. By demonstrating that the state of Scotland will be a better basis for my prosperity than the current system. It won't win any votes by playing the emotive Braveheart nationalistic card. Don't treat "the media" as some homogenous decision making entity though.

Of that I have no doubt and it's certainly the way I'll be looking at it. I think the the yes campaign has actually tried hard to distance itself from the braveheart card after ridiculously using it over a decade ago.

I didn't mean to be completely black and white on 'the media,' but even you can surely see that at times their lack of transparency can be found wanting in a 'larger than I'm comfortable with chunk' of the mainstream.

[Lambie's Pigeon Feed]

Going back to my original post picked up by a couple of others (I can't quote on my phone)

The media will still be able to work in the media in an independent Scotland, the politicians will, by and large, be able to stand for election in an independent Scotland (a few might miss out on a big UK cabinet job but for most it actually gives then more opportunity to further their careers). I myself technically wouldn't have a job in an independent Scotland but firstly this isn't about me and secondly I know that an independent Scotland will still need to do what I do so I will hopefully just move to the Scottish equivalent. It will be the same for virtually anyone employed by the UK government or institutions (accept nuclear submarine pilots maybe).

And the people in politics and the media are by definition not thick, they can't really think they can bullshit their way through a 2 year debate on self interest. Furthermore, supporting the Tories by virtue of supporting Better Together is so obviously dangerous if independence happens they will have factored this in.

It is an interesting discussion, why are people actively supporting Better Together, not the old woman who doesn't really understand fully yet, I mean the younger educated people actively campaigning for BT, why?

[archie guevara]

Going back to my original post picked up by a couple of others (I can't quote on my phone)

The media will still be able to work in the media in an independent Scotland, the politicians will, by and large, be able to stand for election in an independent Scotland (a few might miss out on a big UK cabinet job but for most it actually gives then more opportunity to further their careers). I myself technically wouldn't have a job in an independent Scotland but firstly this isn't about me and secondly I know that an independent Scotland will still need to do what I do so I will hopefully just move to the Scottish equivalent. It will be the same for virtually anyone employed by the UK government or institutions (accept nuclear submarine pilots maybe).

And the people in politics and the media are by definition not thick, they can't really think they can bullshit their way through a 2 year debate on self interest. Furthermore, supporting the Tories by virtue of supporting Better Together is so obviously dangerous if independence happens they will have factored this in.

It is an interesting discussion, why are people actively supporting Better Together, not the old woman who doesn't really understand fully yet, I mean the younger educated people actively campaigning for BT, why?

Three possibilities.

One, they are Tories (not much that can be done about that, it's usually their upbringing)

Two, they are thick

Three, they haven't listened carefully and looked about at what's going on

Hopefully the majority are in the third category and will see the light in due course

[Savage Henry]

Of that I have no doubt and it's certainly the way I'll be looking at it. I think the the yes campaign has actually tried hard to distance itself from the braveheart card after ridiculously using it over a decade ago.

I didn't mean to be completely black and white on 'the media,' but even you can surely see that at times their lack of transparency can be found wanting in a 'larger than I'm comfortable with chunk' of the mainstream.

I think certain elements of the press have been fatally damaged in the last few years anyway. I think the lack of transparency has nothing to do with independence and everything to do with the way certain elements of the media works. I don't know how much, if at all, political bias in newspapers alters voting intention, mind you.

Of course, the added problem is that a lot of this is speculative. I think the coverage, as a whole has been pretty sterile. It takes a long hard look in order to find genuine commentary on the referendum, as opposed to trenchant views and agenda setting.

[DeeGas]

Self-interest in this case will determine the outcome. Which set-up will be most beneficial for me as an individual, and for my family. This is how the Yes vote can win. By demonstrating that the state of Scotland will be a better basis for my prosperity than the current system. It won't win any votes by playing the emotive Braveheart nationalistic card. Don't treat "the media" as some homogenous decision making entity though.

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DEEGAS WROTE

The SNP will use any tactic to try and win the vote.Salmond will be seen at any Commonwealth Games event where it looks as if a Scott may win gold and therefore a photo opportunity.He'll make the most of the golf an all.Scotlands disappointing results on the football field have done Salmonds tricks no good at all.I am sure Brave heart will be used if they think they hav'nt over played that card.

Footnote.

I wonder if a decent England football World Cup campaign will win the Union a few votes.

[Savage Henry]

Three possibilities.

One, they are Tories (not much that can be done about that, it's usually their upbringing)

Two, they are thick

Three, they haven't listened carefully and looked about at what's going on

Hopefully the majority are in the third category and will see the light in due course

With respect, calling your opponents Tories, thick and uneducated is hardly going to persuade the mibees aye, mibees naw voters, is it? There is a case for being made for a conservative Scotland, for example.

[Savage Henry]

Footnote.

I wonder if a decent England football World Cup campaign will win the Union a few votes.

Could you edit that post, please? It makes it look as if I said what you said, which couldn't be further from my opinion.

[DeeGas]

Could you edit that post, please? It makes it look as if I said what you said, which couldn't be further from my opinion.

Beg your pardon,i'm not too good at the editing thing,but I think it's relatively clear who said what.

I said the SNP will use all the tricks in the book to try and win the day.

[H_B]

With respect, calling your opponents Tories, thick and uneducated

Sounds a little negative to me. Can't be though, because that's not in the Nationalist lexicon

[Savage Henry]

Beg your pardon,i'm not too good at the editing thing,but I think it's relatively clear who said what.

I said the SNP will use all the tricks in the book to try and win the day.

Of course they will, they are a political party with an agenda. A very significant agenda. They are no better and no worse than any other party in that regards. That's how all political parties work.

[Savage Henry]

Sounds a little negative to me. Can't be though, because that's not in the Nationalist lexicon

I'm just waiting for the "false consciousness" line from the Yes Feminists Coalition.