Independence - how would you vote?

[xbl]

Quick, the law symbol! HB must be defended!

[xbl]

Reynard

I wasn't even involved in the part of the debate you quote. That was you and XBL

You and I were discussing Tryfield's inability to realise that we are already in the EU. You posted a link to a totally irrelevant story about bank bailouts in the Eurozone (which an independent Scotland has no immediate plans to be part of anyway!) and then claimed that 80% of all Act passed in Westminster were to implement EU Directives!

I pointed out that your figures were absolute nonsense, and provided some more realistic figures.

At that point, you disappeared from the thread, only to return today and claim that "Lichtgilphead was proven to be catastrophically wrong."

Is this really the standard of debate we should expect from the "No" side?

Yep, you skewered him on his invented stats about the EU, I skewered him about his invented stats about pensions. Amazing how he managed to completely vanish from that thread. He'll probably try and start posting on it again in a few days, but I have no intention of letting him away with it. He's lied just once too often this time.

[the jambo-rocker]

Yes, to avoid any doubt I am purely talking about the establishment of the Scottish Parliament and the lead up to the 1997 referendum.

I agree completely that the 1979 referendum was absolutely a response to the SNP threat. In fact, it was for some of the older SNP members the betrayal of the Labour Party in 1979 that led them to their "cut off your nose to spite your face" policy of boycotting the SCC. Which was a fundamental error.

I think the current SNP leadership will have learned a lot from their failures of the 90s. When the next devolution push, for greater powers, is headed by Scottish Labour, the SNP will fall to heel. Only the Labour Party, whatever people think of them, could deliver a Scottish Parliament, and can deliver more powers to the existing Parliament. The SNP could and can do neither.

Didn't the coaltion grant the Scottish parliament more fiscal and legal powers with the Scotland Act 2012? Labour strongly opposed this solely on the basis that the government could implement the Alcohol Minimum pricing act (which seems to have faded into the background). The SNP were reluctant because they apparently believed they could get more. But surely more fiscal powers can only be a good thing regardless of where it came from?

I can understand why some Labour members feel it's a barefaced cheek for the SNP to rewrite history on how the Parliament came to be here. There is no doubt at all that Scottish Labour deserve a huge deal of credit for delivering devolution, and I think they rightfully feel that the Nationalists try to airbrush their own very sketchy contribution to this out of history.

That said, as you say, the SNP were part of the Yes/Yes platform (OK they had no choice in the matter but still) whilst the Tories delivered Think Twice.

For Scottish Labour it's a bit like 1984. The SNP are the new enemy, not the Tories. And they haven't quite adjusted to that.

I don't doubt that the SNP are certainly air-brushing history themselves a little bit, but I would be skeptical if I didn't believe the possibility Labour did it for any more reason that to make sure the Tories, who were the oppostion at the time, were finished up here for good rather than idealistic, democratic political landscaping.

Even with the appalling clusterfuck of a party that has been left up here, they are still comfortably the second biggest party in Scottish politics and they'll be guaranteed a Labour whitewash up here in general elections for probably another generation to come thanks to the devolved split in the first place.

[Baxter Parp]

I guess Donald Dewar was the architect of the Scottish Parliament.

Yes, he called the High School a "nationalist shibboleth" and refused to countenance using it as the parliament. This despite it already being converted to that use. His petulence cost us around £400m.

[Ivo den Bieman]

In all fairness the RHS wasn't suitable for quite a few reasons, particularly the lack of accommodation on that site for elected members, assistants etc. It would also have cost a fortune in IT to bring it up to the standards of a modern IT literate parliament.

Yes Dewar highlighted the 'nationalist shibboleth' reason but there were plenty of sensible ones too, as to why that site was no longer really any use for its purpose.

[archie guevara]

http://youtu.be/AKcBY721B6c

Blair McDougall on STV last night, suggesting that the three main Better Together parties will publish details of their proposed "further powers" before the referendum. Except none of them have said that.

[banterman86]

Didn't the coaltion grant the Scottish parliament more fiscal and legal powers with the Scotland Act 2012? Labour strongly opposed this solely on the basis that the government could implement the Alcohol Minimum pricing act (which seems to have faded into the background). The SNP were reluctant because they apparently believed they could get more. But surely more fiscal powers can only be a good thing regardless of where it came from?

I don't think Labour opposed it. The Scotland Act derives from the Calman Comission which Labour were a part of. I think any Westminster Government would likely have passed it.

I don't understand your point about minimum pricing though, I don't think the two are connected, goven the SNP tried to pass it in the 07-11 Parliament?

I;ve enjoyed soem of the posts about the 97 -99 period. I'm a little young to remember it and would quite like to know more. I felt the "Road to the Referendum" skipped over that period quite quickly.

[xbl]

Remember how Ad Lib and his merry band of unionists assured us that we'd be able to keep all of our land and some of our sea?

http://m.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-faslane-examined-in-report-1-2974688

"IF SCOTLAND votes for independence next year, Faslane naval base on the Clyde is likely to remain sovereign UK territory to ensure Britain could continue to use its four Trident nuclear submarines, a major report has concluded."

[the jambo-rocker]

I don't think Labour opposed it. The Scotland Act derives from the Calman Comission which Labour were a part of. I think any Westminster Government would likely have passed it.

I don't understand your point about minimum pricing though, I don't think the two are connected, goven the SNP tried to pass it in the 07-11 Parliament?

I;ve enjoyed soem of the posts about the 97 -99 period. I'm a little young to remember it and would quite like to know more. I felt the "Road to the Referendum" skipped over that period quite quickly.

I should have said didn't labour strongly oppose?

Apologies, I mis-read it. I thought the minimum pricing act came under the Scotland Act 2012 as well. I'll shuurup now.

[Mr.Bojangles]

Remember how Ad Lib and his merry band of unionists assured us that we'd be able to keep all of our land and some of our sea?

http://m.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-faslane-examined-in-report-1-2974688

"IF SCOTLAND votes for independence next year, Faslane naval base on the Clyde is likely to remain sovereign UK territory to ensure Britain could continue to use its four Trident nuclear submarines, a major report has concluded."

Prenegotiation?

Better for both parties?

I think I can safely say that this is all pie in the sky stuff. We can't determine how much Faslane would be worth in negotiations.

[archie guevara]

Remember how Ad Lib and his merry band of unionists assured us that we'd be able to keep all of our land and some of our sea?

http://m.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-faslane-examined-in-report-1-2974688

"IF SCOTLAND votes for independence next year, Faslane naval base on the Clyde is likely to remain sovereign UK territory to ensure Britain could continue to use its four Trident nuclear submarines, a major report has concluded."

I had a look at that report yesterday. It's by the Scotland Institute, a body run from Chicago that has already been disembowelled by that madcap leftie on Wings over Scotland.

[nifty shade of grey]

I'd like to congratulate Reynard on changing his signature last week, after he bodyswerved my post on 14th June that exploded the lie in his old signature (about Scotland getting more back from Westminster than it contributes in tax). And then ignored a post from someone else a day or two later, pointing out that he'd ignored it.

[archie guevara]

I'd like to congratulate Reynard on changing his signature last week, after he bodyswerved my post on 14th June that exploded the lie in his old signature (about Scotland getting more back from Westminster than it contributes in tax). And then ignored a post from someone else a day or two later, pointing out that he'd ignored it.

269945_380404812037532_1741861894_n.jpg

Fearbomb neutralised by factbomb.

[Mr Rational]

I was tweeting James Maxwell yesterday about Faslane, when we had a branch debate about NATO before the debate, we were unanimous in wanting trident to go, were 50/50 on NATO membership and a majority were in favour if using Faslane/Coulport as a bargaining chip.

I'm comfortable for a 10 year stay, that would give the navy time to build the warhead storage down in Milford Haven, provided we get something in return.....

[xbl]

I'm comfortable for a 10 year stay, that would give the navy time to build the warhead storage down in Milford Haven, provided we get something in return.....

Well exactly. I've been saying it for years now, the Unionists (and apologists) seem to think that the CDU has us over a barrel and that we should gratefully accept whatever crumbs and whatever fraction of our sea that the CDU deigns to give us. Nonsense I say. We are in a damn good negotiating position, and despite what Ad Lib says, no way should we reveal our hand before the Unionists show theirs.

"You need somewhere to keep your nukes? And you want to keep them next to our biggest city? Okay. And how will you be paying for that?"

[archie guevara]

Want to see another fearbomb? This one's a cracker.

[invergowrie arab]

Want to see another fearbomb? This one's a cracker.

He doubts Scotland would leave the pound to join the euro, ‘that means we would go back to the old Scottish currency that has not been in existence for hundreds of years.’

Naw it doesnae...

[archie guevara]

He doubts Scotland would leave the pound to join the euro, ‘that means we would go back to the old Scottish currency that has not been in existence for hundreds of years.’

Naw it doesnae...

[vikingTON]

Liar and a tosser. You are also clearly a halfwit. I said and did no such thing.

^^^ sobbing uncontrollably

You did, we pointed and laughed at you, you slithered off the thread with your tail between your legs. Unlucky.

[Ad Lib]

http://youtu.be/AKcBY721B6c

Blair McDougall on STV last night, suggesting that the three main Better Together parties will publish details of their proposed "further powers" before the referendum. Except none of them have said that.

Incorrect. The Liberal Democrats have already published details of their proposed "further powers" and did so more than two years before the proposed referendum. People can scorn the Lib Dems and their motives and their relevance as much as they like, but you are not entitled to your own facts (see signature).