Mr Rational Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 You seem to have a grasp on the nationalist movement, I'm asking on what evidence is that based on. Please say pie and bovril.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 "British family" Thank you Enrico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 You seem to have a grasp on the nationalist movement, I'm asking on what evidence is that based on. Please say pie and bovril.... You mean the SNP thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Rational Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Also, you are south of the border, can't remember where about, but do you know many nationalists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Freud Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Watch out I said this many many weeks ago and was accused of scaremongering. When central funding is lowered then we would have to raise Taxes, making Scotland the highest taxed part of the UK. It's not scaremongering. It's straight from the horses mouth. Ultimately, decentralisation is anathema to Westminster, regardless of the party (the Lib Dems being the honourable exception, but with absolutely no chance, ever, of going down their preferred route). It really is only a matter of time until the current formula for "local government" is torn up. We can pretty much guarantee that at that point, Scotland will take a disproportional hit. And at THAT point, it comes down to whether or not the Scottish electorate realise what's been done, or buy the fear that independence will make it worse. To be honest, I haven't a clue which it would be, but I would find it utterly impossible to vote no at that stage. The British family that Dee Gas speaks of is something that is still close to my heart. I've spent most of my working life travelling the length and breadth of it. I live in England and love the life and the people. The Westminster village, on the other hand, most certainly isn't. And that's the choice that has to be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Also, you are south of the border, can't remember where about, but do you know many nationalists? I live in Bristol. What do you mean by "nationalists" please? You mean Scottish with SNP feelings,or English with a sense of Britishness ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Better Together? Labour figures shun Better Together over Tory role This from the SCOTSMAN!! SENIOR figures within Scottish Labour are refusing to get involved in the anti-independence Better Together campaign, amid rising concerns about Conservative involvement in the group. Labour politicians at Holyrood and Westminster, as well as Scottish trade union officials, have stayed away from the cross-party campaign for a No vote, despite the group being led by former Chancellor Alistair Darling. There are plenty of quotes too. Kind of ironic that better together is falling apart. Are they not all united by Project Fear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Better Together? Labour figures shun Better Together over Tory role This from the SCOTSMAN!! There are plenty of quotes too. Kind of ironic that better together is falling apart. Are they not all united by Project Fear? Ho !! get yer ain links !! Don't worry Lord Foulkes thinks they are doing a grand job, he's a man with his finger on the pulse of Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Rational Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I have no doubt you get the understanding of the 'British family' stuff, I'm wondering about your comment that some 'Scottish nationalists' don't understand the emotive argument for remaining in the union. Cause I know it very well, I understand the regret it will cause, even the pain it could bring.... I still will be voting yes cause it's got bugger all to do with emotions for me. If you knew the nationalist cause like you say you do, you would understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthAyrshireKillie Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Better Together? Labour figures shun Better Together over Tory role This from the SCOTSMAN!! There are plenty of quotes too. Kind of ironic that better together is falling apart. Are they not all united by Project Fear? Better Together will certainly fall apart,you can see the signs of it already. Labour will come to rue sharing a platform with the Conservatives.They are fractured already, the idea to bring Gordon back into the debate has been blasted by one half of BT (I'd be surprised if we see him again) and the scare stories are beginning to lose effect. I had a great meeting with Yes Scotland this morning and you can see the No campaign slowly but surely losing relevance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Why not posters on here,i mean they are Scottish nationalists. What do you want,film of me talking to people,recorded conversation!? I'm going by some of the posts on this thread.Some have expressed a view of not feeling the "British Family" thing at all.Some have swept it under the carpet as if it is nothing to be taken seriously. Search this thread if you want,but I think most know that these kind of posts have been made. There certainly are Scots who feel part of the british family. I would say in my experience they belong more to my grandparents generation than mine though. People in the UK used to be united by their industry, by their union etc I'm not talking about some dewy eyed working class comradeship either, even professional people working in the nationalised utilities, transport systems etc could feel like the whole of the UK was working towards one goal. i dont believe that exists to any great degree anymore and is increasingly an irrelevance in the constitutional debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 So, this evidence - you know, about "Unionists" wanting you to believe Scotland's EU application wouldn't be welcomed - where is it? Annnnnd, for the benefit of H "this never happens" B, who other than the leader of the Scottish 'Lib Dems'(?), Willie Rennie: http://www.scotlibdems.org.uk/news/2012/10/scotland-cannot-wait-spanish-veto-over-eu-membership I am saying it isn't something a "senior UK minister" would go on record as saying. For obvious reasons. Something they might feed a journo to sow some seeds, perhaps. There is a reaon why some newspaper quotes are not named. And why journos are happy to use the quotes anyway. The UK government line, is that Scotland will have to apply for EU membership. After that, it's up to the existing EU members, including the UK, to vote as they see fit. I see no reason why Scotland's membership application, should Scotland agree to meet the EU's negotiated position on requirements, wouldn't be voted through with no problem. I didn't discuss this before - it may have been Ad Lib. I don't use "friends of the star" or "Talk Sport sources" as evidence. I only ever quote actual people. If you want to quote someone like Michael Forsythe (who is the Nat's poster boy for scaring people) then go for it. Note, if I wish to say Nicola Sturgeon has lied to people I use actual quotes from Nicola Sturgoen, lying to people. That's evidence. H_B: evidence has been provided above, by one of BitterTogether's scaremongers in chief. So either read the thread properly next time and admit you were wrong here, or slither off the thread again for several months: it's your call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I have no doubt you get the understanding of the 'British family' stuff, I'm wondering about your comment that some 'Scottish nationalists' don't understand the emotive argument for remaining in the union. Cause I know it very well, I understand the regret it will cause, even the pain it could bring.... I still will be voting yes cause it's got bugger all to do with emotions for me. If you knew the nationalist cause like you say you do, you would understand that. Oh I see,was'nt sure what you were getting at. Fair enough,you get the British Family point,you don't go with it,but you see that point of view as it were.My understanding of the Scottish nationalist cause is I am sure nothing like as thorough as I may of inadvertently suggested. My main understanding (now you've asked) would be based on my own working class background and people I've met. The way i've seen it (for better or worse),a struggle up north is still a struggle, as it is down south. I've never lived in Scotland and apoligies if I've somehow given the impression I 'get it' exactly as a SNP/Yes voter from Dundee eg,although I do know what it's like to sweat for poor wages or be unemployed. Maybe I could of posted some refuse to recognise,acknowledge the existence of the "British Family" thing. I mean it is a point some sweep under the carpet or ridicule it (see Enricos post a few posts back),i get why they do (I think) from my own life,but never the less,the bottom line is that it exists and it is a major challenge to the Nationalist cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 There certainly are Scots who feel part of the british family. I would say in my experience they belong more to my grandparents generation than mine though. People in the UK used to be united by their industry, by their union etc I'm not talking about some dewy eyed working class comradeship either, even professional people working in the nationalised utilities, transport systems etc could feel like the whole of the UK was working towards one goal. i dont believe that exists to any great degree anymore and is increasingly an irrelevance in the constitutional debate. That is probably a good point invergowie,but imo it is still no reason for Scotland and England to 'split'. We live on a small island,we are surely civilised enough people to share it together. A border will be imo a massive mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 That is probably a good point invergowie,but imo it is still no reason for Scotland and England to 'split'. We live on a small island,we are surely civilised enough people to share it together. A border will be imo a massive mistake. Do you believe it to be an equal Union? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Do you believe it to be an equal Union? Yes.In that I believe all people should get a fair crack of the whip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Yes.In that I believe all people should get a fair crack of the whip. He didn't ask what you believe, he asked if you believe it is an equal union between Scotland and England Be good and answer it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthAyrshireKillie Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Yes.In that I believe all people should get a fair crack of the whip. Spoken like a true Tory w****r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I am saying it isn't something a "senior UK minister" would go on record as saying. For obvious reasons. Something they might feed a journo to sow some seeds, perhaps. There is a reaon why some newspaper quotes are not named. And why journos are happy to use the quotes anyway. The UK government line, is that Scotland will have to apply for EU membership. After that, it's up to the existing EU members, including the UK, to vote as they see fit. I see no reason why Scotland's membership application, should Scotland agree to meet the EU's negotiated position on requirements, wouldn't be voted through with no problem. Well obviously he didn't go on record as saying it, since he wasn't a named source. So the possible options are: 1) The quote was completely made up by the Independent 2) The quote is legitimate, but given with the understanding that the minister's name wouldn't be used Can you explain which of these doesn't completely validate the proposition that unionists were scaremongering about the prospect of Scotland being shut out of the EU, and using Spain as the reason why? I'm not accepting this goalpost-shifting to 'UK government line', by the way. We are talking about "Unionists", who in this context will include not just members of the UK government but members of Better Together, their various confederates, and much of the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 He didn't ask what you believe, he asked if you believe it is an equal union between Scotland and England Be good and answer it Hmm,i believe in a fair Union between Scotland and England.So "equal" as in "fair". All people being equal.I would support more powers for Scotland,more self decision making and the cash to do it,but only within the UK Union and only if it were fair to the rest of the Union.I think as things are it probably would be.Same goes for other parts of the UK. An independent Scotland would not be in Union with anyone except themselves. That's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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