Tio Pepe Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I have no issue with asserting the belief that No voters should be ashamed of themselves. Personal greed or fear is what makes a No voter. And that's the level of debate you are capable of? It is an outrageous slur to the majority of the electorate to claim they should be ashamed of themselves because they disagree with you. You probably don't see yourself as arrogant but that is one of the most arrogant things I have seen written during this debate. What about the Yes voters that are voting that way because they believe the propoganda about Scotland being better off financially and those who believe they will be better off personally? Should they not really be No voters too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 And that's the level of debate you are capable of? It is an outrageous slur to the majority of the electorate to claim they should be ashamed of themselves because they disagree with you. You probably don't see yourself as arrogant but that is one of the most arrogant things I have seen written during this debate. What about the Yes voters that are voting that way because they believe the propoganda about Scotland being better off financially and those who believe they will be better off personally? Should they not really be No voters too? I'm not looking too much into any of the propaganda. At the end of the day for me, I want to live in an independent democratic country. For me it is do you believe that the people of Scotland are capable of governing their own country? If you do then vote YES. If you don't then vote NO. I don't understand why anyone would vote NO. Most NO voters I've engaged with haven't yet properly looked into the referendum themselves. Each to their own right enough. I've been very encouraged with the amount of people I've seen changing from staunch NOs to YES after a bit of research. Hopefully more follow suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Gordon Brown "The referendum is not about Scotland v Britain, it's about a patriotic alternative to the SNP" http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/scottish-referendum-not-britain-v-scotland So basically it's another plea to vote Labour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 And that's the level of debate you are capable of? It is an outrageous slur to the majority of the electorate to claim they should be ashamed of themselves because they disagree with you. You probably don't see yourself as arrogant but that is one of the most arrogant things I have seen written during this debate. What about the Yes voters that are voting that way because they believe the propoganda about Scotland being better off financially and those who believe they will be better off personally? Should they not really be No voters too? And the votes have been counted, must have missed this. It could in fact be a minority of the electorate. If someone chooses not to exercise their democratic right to self determination then this, in my opinion, makes them worse than North Koreans who do not have such an opportunity. People all over the world have fought and died to gain independence for their country and all we have to do is get off our arses, put a little mark on a piece of paper and reap what we sow. In light of this then I would say that anyone who does not take this opportunity should be, at a minimum, embarrassed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tio Pepe Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I'm not looking too much into any of the propaganda. At the end of the day for me, I want to live in an independent democratic country. For me it is do you believe that the people of Scotland are capable of governing their own country? If you do then vote YES. If you don't then vote NO. I don't understand why anyone would vote NO. Most NO voters I've engaged with haven't yet properly looked into the referendum themselves. Each to their own right enough. I've been very encouraged with the amount of people I've seen changing from staunch NOs to YES after a bit of research. Hopefully more follow suit. Not really. You may believe that the Scots are capable of governing their own country but also believe it is sub-optimal. It is not really for No voters to justify their stance. It is for those in favour of change to make their case. No one has to justify a preference for a current situation. You support Arbroath, if I think you should support Forfar instead it is for me to make that case and persuade you, not for you to come up with a multitude of reasons why you wish to remain an Arbroath supporter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tio Pepe Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 And the votes have been counted, must have missed this. It could in fact be a minority of the electorate. If someone chooses not to exercise their democratic right to self determination then this, in my opinion, makes them worse than North Koreans who do not have such an opportunity. People all over the world have fought and died to gain independence for their country and all we have to do is get off our arses, put a little mark on a piece of paper and reap what we sow. In light of this then I would say that anyone who does not take this opportunity should be, at a minimum, embarrassed. Utter nonsense. We have self-determination. We all have a vote, live in a democracy, are not oppressed, are free to make our own choices, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burma Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Gordon Brown "The referendum is not about Scotland v Britain, it's about a patriotic alternative to the SNP" http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/scottish-referendum-not-britain-v-scotland So basically it's another plea to vote Labour Two Labour guys in two days rattling on about "patriotism". Have they lost the economic argument?Also appears to be yet another argument about Labour v SNP rather than YES v NO. A shift away from the ref. and one eye on the post referendum elections. They truly believe its a done deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Not really. You may believe that the Scots are capable of governing their own country but also believe it is sub-optimal. It is not really for No voters to justify their stance. It is for those in favour of change to make their case. No one has to justify a preference for a current situation. You support Arbroath, if I think you should support Forfar instead it is for me to make that case and persuade you, not for you to come up with a multitude of reasons why you wish to remain an Arbroath supporter. How is it not? That example you have gave there is utter pish. Of course it is up to the NO side to tell us why remaining in the United Kingdom is BETTER ( to tell us why we are Better Together funnily enough... ) than going independent. An idiot couldn't deny that, don't be that idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Utter nonsense. We have self-determination. We all have a vote, live in a democracy, are not oppressed, are free to make our own choices, etc. We do have a vote, but as a COUNTRY were about as relevant as Yorkshire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Utter nonsense. We have self-determination. We all have a vote, live in a democracy, are not oppressed, are free to make our own choices, etc. Well we obviously have a different definition of self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burma Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Not really. You may believe that the Scots are capable of governing their own country but also believe it is sub-optimal. It is not really for No voters to justify their stance. It is for those in favour of change to make their case. No one has to justify a preference for a current situation. You support Arbroath, if I think you should support Forfar instead it is for me to make that case and persuade you, not for you to come up with a multitude of reasons why you wish to remain an Arbroath supporter. If this was true there would be no need to offer "something better". And yet all three union parties have made (vague) promises about more powers for Holyrood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Also appears to be yet another argument about Labour v SNP rather than YES v NO. A shift away from the ref. and one eye on the post referendum elections. They truly believe its a done deal. I think it's more about making indy about the SNP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 If this was true there would be no need to offer "something better". And yet all three union parties have made (vague) promises about more powers for Holyrood. What is vague about what they have proposed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tio Pepe Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 How is it not? That example you have gave there is utter pish. Of course it is up to the NO side to tell us why remaining in the United Kingdom is BETTER ( to tell us why we are Better Together funnily enough... ) than going independent. An idiot couldn't deny that, don't be that idiot. You seem to be falling into the Yes trap of bandying about insults. If a group sets itself up to campaign then then they must do so. Individuals have no need to justify their preference for the status quo, as my 'utter pish' example showed. Rather than utter pish it makes the point about individual choice and the fact that you do not need to justify your choices to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tio Pepe Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 If this was true there would be no need to offer "something better". And yet all three union parties have made (vague) promises about more powers for Holyrood. Perhaps there was no need, but they are political parties and it is hardly earth shattering if they announce policies that they think may get them votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 You seem to be falling into the Yes trap of bandying about insults. If a group sets itself up to campaign then then they must do so. Individuals have no need to justify their preference for the status quo, as my 'utter pish' example showed. Rather than utter pish it makes the point about individual choice and the fact that you do not need to justify your choices to anyone. Yes that trap where only YES voters give insults? Trust me that ain't the case. I've been started on for having a YES sticker on, did that NO voter fall into the trap of NO voters being absolute rockets? And no your example never showed anything, you show blind loyalty to a football club you support, you don't support them for any Pros or Cons that they might give you? That example was terrible, it is down to the NO camp to tell us why we are Better Together, what the positives are for staying in this shambles of a Union, how you can deny that is beyond me. It's like saying a brand shouldn't try and improve and advertise, why their brand isn't better than other ones appearing, because they already have a large amount of consumers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 What is vague about what they have proposed? Any firm offers(and by firm i mean on the table for definite) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 And that's the level of debate you are capable of? It is an outrageous slur to the majority of the electorate to claim they should be ashamed of themselves because they disagree with you. You probably don't see yourself as arrogant but that is one of the most arrogant things I have seen written during this debate. What about the Yes voters that are voting that way because they believe the propoganda about Scotland being better off financially and those who believe they will be better off personally? Should they not really be No voters too? Boo hoo. If that's one of the most arrogant things you've ever read, you'd better stay in the house for the next 3 months. I have seen plenty more arrogant than that from the No side. Dry your eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Any firm offers(and by firm i mean on the table for definite) there's nothing definate on the table form eitehr side. We have the White Paper as a prospectus for a new indy scotland, the Scotland Act 2012 which will be fully implemented by 2016, and then the 3 seperate proposals form the UK parties for furtehr devo. None of this is definate for obvious reasons - we don't knwo if further devo will even be ncessary in 3 months time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burma Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 there's nothing definate on the table form eitehr side. We have the White Paper as a prospectus for a new indy scotland, the Scotland Act 2012 which will be fully implemented by 2016, and then the 3 seperate proposals form the UK parties for furtehr devo. None of this is definate for obvious reasons - we don't knwo if further devo will even be ncessary in 3 months time. And yet the NO campaign is entirely based upon the premise that YES means uncertainty, "a leap in the dark". Dishonest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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