All things Dundee FC

[Robin.Hood]

2 minutes ago, Vernon gilmore said:

Have to say if you can’t see he’s been the best performer in our awful back 4 this season , then your eyes must be painted on 

Best performer from back four? Good ane. 

He can't cross, he dives in for challenges, he can't defend . He just runs about and adds very little to the team. 

However if you believe kerr even gets close to a pass mark then this is why we are stuck with players like Kerr and you be aswell be Mcpakes assistant 

[Ludo*1]

8 minutes ago, Vernon gilmore said:

Have to say if you can’t see he’s been the best performer in our awful back 4 this season , then your eyes must be painted on 

That's just nonsense tbh.

[Fifespud]

Have to say if you can’t see he’s been the best performer in our awful back 4 this season , then your eyes must be painted on 

I’ve been his biggest supporter and I can’t see how you work that out. Marshall is a very limited defender but at least he’s good going forward. Cammy is not good enough for the prem, end of.

I fucking hate the c**t but McInnes needs tapping up. McPake has been strongly backed, a half decent manager with our board behind him should easily have us in 5th to 8th.


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[Meadow_Jock]

Lord, Mcpake looked absolutely broken in his Sportscene interview.

I do feel a bit sorry for him, as by all accounts he's a good guy, but for me he's got until the end of the opening round of fixtures, i.e. three games culminating in Ross County at home. By the end of that round we need to:

1) be above Ross fucking County

2) be there because of an actual win, none of this "by default" shite. 

[Ludo*1]

I honestly think unless the confidence is completely shattered, we'll still come good. Clearly the loss of Adam has been monumental as McPake has not only built the squad round him but our whole tactical style is based around Adam. We've got some areas where we are clearly lacking particularly at RB and CH (Not buying that Ashcroft is consistently good enough although Sweeney might be a partial solution).

The 4-3-3 was developed for Adam. The legs of McGhee, the defensive covering of Byrne and the formation just worked. If teams tried to double up on Adam then McMullan's pace was terrifying for defenders 1 on 1.

McPake because he is a diddy manager, didn't account for our talisman 36 year old midfielder being missing for portions of the season and as such didn't have a back-up plan and everything has went to shite without him. The central midfield trio has zero creativity and has made McGhee's talents pointless in midfield, it's largely nullified McMullan's threat and meant that whoever our striker up top is gets zero service.

McPake switches to the 3-5-2 which is good against Rangers but ultimately fails, and then like every other time McPake has tried the 3-5-2, utterly fails because he believes it's a bright idea to go man for man against a team which is probably better drilled than any other team in the league in the exact same formation. A club that has been playing that formation every week for the best part of 18 month.

Now, pretty much all of this is clearly McPake's fault and he needs to be held accountable for it. I wouldn't mind him being relieved of his duties now (provided we could attract the names people keep touting ie, McInnes - which I doubt). However, that doesn't mean I think we don't have the possibility of being safe under his stewardship. His plan A was working and it was working very effectively. We papped Motherwell out of the cup and were looking the likelier until Adam went off injured in the league. This is a Motherwell side that has been beaten twice this season since the LC group stages - by Hibs and ourselves.

Speaking of Hibs, we also more than matched them and we were scoring goals at the time using our plan A. This is a Hibs side that was probably a controversial red card away from being top of the league today.

Yes, yesterday was abject and yes we're in trouble and yes, McPake has fucked things up once again somewhat. However, it's far too early to write the whole squad off the way some are doing. We knew it was gonna be a long slog before a ball was kicked and that as we have in every season we've been in the top flight in my lifetime, that we'd go sizeable chunks without a win. The next 4 games are massive and hopefully we'll be able to use our plan A in all of them.

[Vernon gilmore]

2 hours ago, Fifespud said:

I’ve been his biggest supporter and I can’t see how you work that out. Marshall is a very limited defender but at least he’s good going forward. Cammy is not good enough for the prem, end of.

I fucking hate the c**t but McInnes needs tapping up. McPake has been strongly backed, a half decent manager with our board behind him should easily have us in 5th to 8th.


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All 3 goals came from Marshall’s wing , Saints obviously targeted his weakness , he’s a terrible defender , good going forward but couldnae make a back from a waistcoat 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

There is a more fundamental issue than the manager.

Why is it that clubs with budgets less than ours consistently get better value and quality than we do?

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[Shadow Play]

14 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

There is a more fundamental issue than the manager.

Why is it that clubs with budgets less than ours consistently get better value and quality than we do?

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Neil McCann is a pundit but Nelms thought he’d make a good manager.  

McIntyre was an utterly bizarre appointment but Nelms thought both he a Dodds would fit in nicely and the fans would be happy.

McPake had no managerial experience but Nelms thought it was best to let him learn his trade at a higher level than most managers start their managerial career.

Until we make a decent managerial appointment a bigger budget will not be enough to have a half decent team.

 

 

[RandomGuy.]

25 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

There is a more fundamental issue than the manager.

Why is it that clubs with budgets less than ours consistently get better value and quality than we do?

Probably because you seem to consistently just chuck money at your manager at the times mates.

[Robin.Hood]

43 minutes ago, Vernon gilmore said:

All 3 goals came from Marshall’s wing , Saints obviously targeted his weakness , he’s a terrible defender , good going forward but couldnae make a back from a waistcoat 

In the cup game against saints one of there goals came from Kerr making a c**t of it. In a game where we were on top. A sloppy mistake and well that was that. 

I agree regarding Marshall shite defender but he is not to bad goinf forward.

Kerr adds what to the team? 

[Vernon gilmore]

Kerr is a better defender than Marshall, for me he proved that at the end of the season when he played left back when Marshall was injured , 

[Robin.Hood]

5 hours ago, Vernon gilmore said:

Kerr is a better defender than Marshall, for me he proved that at the end of the season when he played left back when Marshall was injured , 

Would you drop Marshall and play Kerr at left back? Who goes right back ? We can't be continuing to play Kerr at right back as he is shite in that position this season ( personally we shouldn't be playing him at all but I do like to listen to others people's opinions) 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Neil McCann is a pundit but Nelms thought he’d make a good manager.  

McIntyre was an utterly bizarre appointment but Nelms thought both he a Dodds would fit in nicely and the fans would be happy.
McPake had no managerial experience but Nelms thought it was best to let him learn his trade at a higher level than most managers start their managerial career.
Until we make a decent managerial appointment a bigger budget will not be enough to have a half decent team.
 
 

Where did I said bigger budget?

We consistently spend our budget on shite players - that's the problem. Other teams, even when they have new managers, don't appear to have that issue.

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[Ludo*1]

Anyone arguing that Kerr is a better player for us than Marshall must be a relation to Cammy Kerr IMO.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

There is a more fundamental issue than the manager.

Why is it that clubs with budgets less than ours consistently get better value and quality than we do?

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The fundamental issue is Nelms. He is singularly incapable of making a good managerial appointment then throws good money after bad. We all know McPake won't be binned until the season is too far gone, resulting in relegation and us being back to square one, having spent a small fortune backing a guy who isn't up to the job.

*Insert mixu what's the fucking point gif*

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[capt_oats]

12 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

There is a more fundamental issue than the manager.

Why is it that clubs with budgets less than ours consistently get better value and quality than we do?

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Depends on which "clubs with budgets less than ours" you're talking about and whether you're talking specifically about recruitment or just "value" in general. Either way from the outside looking in it feels like a big part of the issue is Nelms and approach to infrastructure.

Again, I've no idea if this actually is the case or not but looking at the managerial appointments he's made it feels like he's happy to hand over the "football department" to the manager and just write cheques so there's a lack of direction and you're really just relying on the manager to provide that.

I think this impression for me goes back to McCann coming out and highlighting that Dundee's scouting department was pretty much non-existent but a step forward was getting a WyScout subscription or whatever. I mean, even @RandomGuy. has a WyScout subscription now...it's a pretty basic thing. 

Have the club done anything more to address that, has Nelms set up a recruitment role/department or are they still relying on the manager and his contacts? McCann getting a player like Kamara in was a good example of the club getting value from a player on the park (if not on the player trading side) and Jack Hendry ticked both boxes albeit he was a more known quantity in Scottish football but more recently there seems to have been a pivot away to signing "names" eg: Adam, Cummings, Griffiths etc.

Clearly I know Strachan's involved at the club as "technical director" but that position still feels quite vague and undefined. On the face of it while McPake can clearly lean on Strachan should he wish there doesn't seem to be much obvious backroom support in other areas.

Again, it depends on what clubs you're meaning but if you look around the league you're seeing more and more clubs with a more modest budget investing in infrastructure and the direction for these sort of changes is coming from CEO/Boardroom level and the intention is to get better value.

To use Motherwell as an example it became clear in recent seasons that our previous strategy had run its course. Over the summer we brought in a 2nd data analyst for the first team, we've set up partnerships with analytics companies and we've had the Head of Recruitment role established for years. All of that goes to support the manager.

We announced our new HoR and this was the mandate around his role and it feels like, as before, it's part of a broader strategy:

Quote

“We are going to adopt a modern approach to recruitment. That involves exploring everything that is possibly available to us to take us forward, be it data analytics or the more traditional scouting methods.

“What we need to have options in every available market. You don’t have to have the biggest budget, but you can be smart with it, while ensuring you’re in the market for the best players possible for our club.

“We will make the right decisions, not rushed decisions, and ensure we get the best players we can.

“Beyond this summer, it is key for Motherwell that there is a recruitment structure put in place that leaves a legacy and way of working well beyond my time at the club."

Link

Obviously it remains to be seen whether that's successful in our case but to your point about other clubs getting value from their budget this probably goes some way to highlighting why it might be the case. Other clubs are identifying strategies to develop and improve on that front and generally investing in the infrastructure of their respective clubs but I'm not sure the same feels true of Nelms.

Edited October 4, 2021 by capt_oats

[hk blues]

11 hours ago, Shadow Play said:

Neil McCann is a pundit but Nelms thought he’d make a good manager.  

McIntyre was an utterly bizarre appointment but Nelms thought both he a Dodds would fit in nicely and the fans would be happy.

McPake had no managerial experience but Nelms thought it was best to let him learn his trade at a higher level than most managers start their managerial career.

Until we make a decent managerial appointment a bigger budget will not be enough to have a half decent team.

 

 

McCann and McPake were high risk appointments given their lack of experience.  McIntyre wasn't that much of a left-field appointment at the time IIRC - a solid and steady hand on the rudder at the time.  Didn't turn out that way though!

[Shadow Play]

4 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Where did I said bigger budget?

We consistently spend our budget on shite players - that's the problem. Other teams, even when they have new managers, don't appear to have that issue.

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4 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Where did I said bigger budget?

We consistently spend our budget on shite players - that's the problem. Other teams, even when they have new managers, don't appear to have that issue.

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I think you misunderstood what I was meaning, I was agreeing with you about what we get for our budget.  As you said in the original post “Why is it that clubs with budgets less than ours consistently get better value and quality than we do?. 

The most obvious issue we have is we have a chairman who is completely out his depth making poor managerial appointments. 

 

[Shadow Play]

14 minutes ago, hk blues said:

McCann and McPake were high risk appointments given their lack of experience.  McIntyre wasn't that much of a left-field appointment at the time IIRC - a solid and steady hand on the rudder at the time.  Didn't turn out that way though!

I’ve yet to meet a Dundee fan who thought McIntyre and Dodds was the way forward.  Utterly baffling decision to make IMHO. 

Nelms, on the other hand, thought it was a great idea.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Shadow Play

[Dee Bliss]

4 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

Anyone arguing that Kerr is a better player for us than Marshall must be a relation to Cammy Kerr IMO.

Do you think either are good enough if we want to remain in this league?