All things Dundee FC

[Kyle Reese]

I think the most obvious booking would be throwing the ball away, no? 

If I was inclined to get involved in something like that, I’d probably want to do something that isn’t open to interpretation, and that wouldn’t put my own body at risk. Toss the ball away when Collum is the ref, and you are as well writing your name in his book yourself.

Who knows though. Would need to know more about exactly what was bet on and the numbers.

What happened to McNulty when he was investigated a few years ago?

[Ric]

8 minutes ago, AJF said:

I don’t think Collum booking players is the issue, it’s any bets perceived to be suspicious surrounding the bookings.

The problem is Colum is unpredictable, capricious, small minded and petty.

You can't use him as a benchmark, so if there was 22 bookings in a game, I simply would put that down to his incompetence not some mass betting scandal.

[Theyellowbox]

Dundee gonna Dundee. Probably something Dundee fans could answer best, but of the 4 players booked, are any the kind of player you could expect it from? For me, unfortunately there is 2 with pretty chequered histories.

For everyone's sake I hope there is nothing in it, but, if it is found that there is something happened, is it individual alone that get a punishment or does the club get something like a points deduction?

I can only imagine the sheer joy of hearts fans if Dundee got a points deduction, league got called now and Dundee go down.....

[AJF]

19 minutes ago, Ric said:

The problem is Colum is unpredictable, capricious, small minded and petty.

You can't use him as a benchmark, so if there was 22 bookings in a game, I simply would put that down to his incompetence not some mass betting scandal.

I think you’re missing what I’m saying though. The bookies haven’t asked for an investigation because the players were simply booked, they’re looking for an investigation because there are suspicious betting patterns. It has absolutely nothing to do with Collum (unless he is the one that may have provided insider knowledge to someone).

[Girth]

17 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Dundee gonna Dundee. Probably something Dundee fans could answer best, but of the 4 players booked, are any the kind of player you could expect it from? For me, unfortunately there is 2 with pretty chequered histories.

For everyone's sake I hope there is nothing in it, but, if it is found that there is something happened, is it individual alone that get a punishment or does the club get something like a points deduction?

I can only imagine the sheer joy of hearts fans if Dundee got a points deduction, league got called now and Dundee go down.....

Nice try matey! 

[Theyellowbox]

1 minute ago, Girth said:

Nice try matey! 

Aye, of course we are. Absolute stinking this season. If/when we go down, it will be deserved.

Not going to lie though, if Dundee got a points deduction it would be glorious. Mind you, based on current team, I'd still expect us to go down even with that.

FWIW, I don't think there will be anything in this, but Dundee fans must be asking about how a single squad can have such an amount of off field issues. 

[Ric]

5 minutes ago, AJF said:

I think you’re missing what I’m saying though. The bookies haven’t asked for an investigation because the players were simply booked, they’re looking for an investigation because there are suspicious betting patterns. It has absolutely nothing to do with Collum (unless he is the one that may have provided insider knowledge to someone).

Why was is suspicious? That'll be because the bookies paid out. Trust me, that's the motivation here, not that they found irregular patterns or whatever. If they thought something fucky was going on yet they still profited from it, they'd have kept schtum, they wouldn't care a jot if it is was rigged but they still made a profit.

In order to determine if something is amiss, you would need to analyse the game and work out if (in this case) the bookings were justified or "played for". This problem is, of course, Colum, who cannot be relied on not to absolutely shit the bed and issue endless cards just because he was particularly keen to make the game all about him that day.

See the problem? It's not so much I've missed the point but addressing another element of it.

[Rob1885]

Can't see anything online. One United fan posted this but the rumours would be rampant now if it were the case so assuming it's a troll:
 

refers to this I think

[Girth]

Just now, Theyellowbox said:

Aye, of course we are. Absolute stinking this season. If/when we go down, it will be deserved.

Not going to lie though, if Dundee got a points deduction it would be glorious. Mind you, based on current team, I'd still expect us to go down even with that.

FWIW, I don't think there will be anything in this, but Dundee fans must be asking about how a single squad can have such an amount of off field issues. 

Yeah, it's embarrassing really. However, seems to be the Dundee way. 

We'll need a few changes next month (if the season continues) because we're definitely a bottom three team atm. 

Who knows though!? You get a scorer in and you could grab a win or two!?

[Theyellowbox]

5 minutes ago, Girth said:

Yeah, it's embarrassing really. However, seems to be the Dundee way. 

We'll need a few changes next month (if the season continues) because we're definitely a bottom three team atm. 

Who knows though!? You get a scorer in and you could grab a win or two!?

Think we need more than just a goalscorer. More fundamental gaps in midfield too.

On the flip side of the embarrassment for Dundee, I think all these issues will make McPake a better man manager possibly. Maybe if he doesn't make it as a manager he has a future as some sort of counselor (or parole officer... )

[AJF]

14 minutes ago, Ric said:

Why was is suspicious? That'll be because the bookies paid out. Trust me, that's the motivation here, not that they found irregular patterns or whatever. If they thought something fucky was going on yet they still profited from it, they'd have kept schtum, they wouldn't care a jot if it is was rigged but they still made a profit.

In order to determine if something is amiss, you would need to analyse the game and work out if (in this case) the bookings were justified or "played for". This problem is, of course, Colum, who cannot be relied on not to absolutely shit the bed and issue endless cards just because he was particularly keen to make the game all about him that day.

See the problem? It's not so much I've missed the point but addressing another element of it.

It’s suspicious if specific bets are placed to a value that are out with the norm for that kind of market. Whether those suspicions are proved is a different matter.

For several bookmakers to contact the SPFL to report suspicious betting activity is not normal just because they may have lost money.

Additionally, we don’t even know if they have lost any money yet. It is quite common for bookmakers to suspend bets and withhold payouts if they suspect something dodgy is going on.

In order to find out if something is amiss, I doubt they will focus too much attention on the match or incidents themselves. They will investigate those who placed the bets and determine if there is any link to players/referees.

Edited December 24, 2021 by AJF

[Ric]

Just now, AJF said:

For several bookmakers to contact the SPFL to report suspicious betting activity is not normal just because they may have lost money.

They certainly aren't going to report it if it makes them money, as the saying goes, "you never see a skint bookie".

Just now, AJF said:

In order to find out if something is amiss, I doubt they will focus too much attention on the match or incidents themselves.

You would make a great barrister.

"Your honour, I would like the jury to ignore that actual murder and focus on whether the defendant texted any friends of the deceased"

[Richie]

Remember this happened with Steve Jennings being sent off a few years ago (also v Hearts).
At the end of the day the ref is the only one who can actually guarantee a booking.
I've been lumping on the bookings markets recently. Particularly KVV and Slattery.
Unsurprising if money is getting thrown at that kind of thing, particularly with Collum etc in charge.

[AJF]

6 minutes ago, Ric said:

They certainly aren't going to report it if it makes them money, as the saying goes, "you never see a skint bookie".

You would make a great barrister.

"Your honour, I would like the jury to ignore that actual murder and focus on whether the defendant texted any friends of the deceased"

Bookies lose money on bets all the time. To suggest they are only looking at it because of that, is pretty naive, in my opinion.

This fixation on Collum is also odd considering he is, certainly this season anyway, one of the more lenient refs in terms of bookings. For comparison, here are some of the refs average bookings per game:

Beaton - 5.1

Muir - 4.8

Robertson - 4.4

Clancy - 4.3

Walsh - 4.3

Collum - 3.6

Madden - 2.8

Stats taken from Transfermarkt so blame them if they are wrong

[Ric]

Just now, AJF said:

Bookies lose money on bets all the time. To suggest they are only looking at it because of that, is pretty naive, in my opinion.

This fixation on Collum is also odd considering he is, certainly this season anyway, one of the more lenient refs in terms of bookings. For comparison, here are some of the refs average bookings per game:

Beaton - 5.1

Muir - 4.8

Robertson - 4.4

Clancy - 4.3

Walsh - 4.3

Collum - 3.6

Madden - 2.8

Stats taken from Transfermarkt so blame them if they are wrong

Shoosh, what nonsense. I've had several close friends be managers of bookmakers and that is exactly how it works. If it makes the company money, you keep quiet. I'd say the naivety is suggesting a divisive and damaging industry which preys on the weak willed and broken, would suddenly have a conscience regarding the "integrity of the game".

As for the second part, that has absolutely no relevance. We are talking a specific game and a specific referee. In that game many people were booked and the authorities now need to decide whether the referee justifiably gave those bookings or whether they were "played for". A case made all the more difficult due to it being Colum.

[AJF]

1 minute ago, Ric said:

Shoosh, what nonsense. I've had several close friends be managers of bookmakers and that is exactly how it works. If it makes the company money, you keep quiet. I'd say the naivety is suggesting a divisive and damaging industry which preys on the weak willed and broken, would suddenly have a conscience regarding the "integrity of the game".

As for the second part, that has absolutely no relevance. We are talking a specific game and a specific referee. In that game many people were booked and the authorities now need to decide whether the referee justifiably gave those bookings or whether they were "played for". A case made all the more difficult due to it being Colum.

Read what I am actually typing. I am not denying that bookies may only investigate betting patterns that will lose them money. I am not saying that bookies have a conscience regarding the integrity of the game. You are putting words in my mouth.

What I am saying, though, is that bookies will only investigate betting patterns if they have reason to suspect something dodgy has gone on. The fact they are reportedly readying a police complaint as well says a lot. As I said before, bookies lose money all the time on certain markets but they don’t go and open up investigations for them all.

The second part does have relevance if you are trying to paint it as though Collum is somehow more susceptible to booking Dundee players after bookmakers consider irregular bets have been placed on them to be booked.

This may turn out to be unproven or nothing in it, but to simply write this off as a case of the bookies lost money and Collum was in charge, is an odd take in my opinion.

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, Ric said:

Shoosh, what nonsense. I've had several close friends be managers of bookmakers and that is exactly how it works. If it makes the company money, you keep quiet. I'd say the naivety is suggesting a divisive and damaging industry which preys on the weak willed and broken, would suddenly have a conscience regarding the "integrity of the game".

 

A bookmaker doesn't have to develop Corinthian sporting values to understand that a rigged betting market is not in their commercial interest. In this Venn diagram the best (self-serving) interests of bookmakers align perfectly with the sporting integrity interests of the football authorities and nothing more needs to be said about that.

Speaking of integrity, I'm sure that Dundee FC will invest at least as much furious energy into rooting out any confirmed betting cheats in their own squad, as they did in fabricating match fixing allegations about other football clubs in the 2013/14 campaign. 

[Ric]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

A bookmaker doesn't have to develop Corinthian sporting values to understand that a rigged betting market is not in their commercial interest.

You are right and the emboldened bit is the relevant part from my point of view.

 

4 minutes ago, AJF said:

The second part does have relevance if you are trying to paint it as though Collum is somehow more susceptible to booking Dundee players after bookmakers consider irregular bets have been placed on them to be booked.

That's the point Colum is so unpredictable, that it all depends on whether he feels like he wants to be the centre of attention or not on whether the bookings will be high. This will be lost in an overall averaging of statistics.

[RossBFaeDundee]

1 hour ago, Rob1885 said:

refers to this I think

So that's it? Christ that's pathetic, I get that nobody likes Charlie, but what a horrendous claim to make from an applause emoji.

[AJF]

7 minutes ago, Ric said:

You are right and the emboldened bit is the relevant part from my point of view.

 

That's the point Colum is so unpredictable, that it all depends on whether he feels like he wants to be the centre of attention or not on whether the bookings will be high. This will be lost in an overall averaging of statistics.

Colum’s unpredictability has no bearing whatsoever on suspicious betting patterns though.