Was it the manner of the defeat?

[pandarilla]

It was the high turnout of new voters returning a comprehensive NO landslide that surprised me.

Im still in shock at the rejection accross the board, like others Ive woken up with an identity crisis and a loss of faith in 55% of people everywhere.

Nevermind pish about political parties or party leaders, we had the chance to reject corporations run on the labour of minimum wage workers, self regulating banks that keep profits but socialise losses, state media that covered up peadophilia and told lies for years, we couldve rejected NATO ffs. How many millions/billions around the world have suffered at the hands of the people who sided with the No campaign?

Yet come polling day, Scotland turned out in droves to protect the crumbs the establishment dribbles down to them, Im glad Im leaving tonight.

This is the closest description of the feeling I have.

There are too many people who either are ignorant of the neo-liberal game that's been played for 30 years - or are too selfish to care about what's best for the country as a whole.

With a No vote we have endorsed the Westminster system.

I also have an issue with those who claim there wasn't enough information or detailed plans. I guarantee 9/10 won't have bothered to read the white paper for starters. As well as that - what could the Yes campaign have possible said that would've got folk to vote Yes? A new currency? The Euro? I doubt it. The SNP cleverly created a plan that would appear to not change very much - with the promise of complete political control over our future (for anyone who wanted more radical change). This was a tightrope and I don't see how they could've kept the balance any better.

Constitutional change like this is obviously going to involve a leap of faith to a certain extent. I think Salmond and co did their level best to make that change as easy as possible for those who were concerned for the short term. Folk can say they wanted more information but I think they're kidding themselves on - those people shat it.

[HibeeJibee]

I too was surprised by the scale of the rejection. Only 4 out of 32 council areas voted 'Yes' and a couple of those were hardly by thumping majorities - and the uniting factor seems to be parts of highest social depravation. Presumably such areas have the lowest element of people who inherently believe in the UK, the lowest element of incomers, and the highest element of people with least to lose from an economic point of view. (It is a bit of a kick in the teeth for Labour though: these were once their key areas). For the SNP to lose, often quite convincingly, across their heartlands was surprising. Also intriguing that turnout was notably lower in Glasgow and Dundee - did some of the supposed "crossing" Labour votes just "cross" to abstaining?

Ultimately for decades there have always been about 3 in 10 people in Scotland who would instinctively vote for independence. On top of that I think there are perhaps 5% who will naturally go for it out of political expediency (e.g. Greens and Socialists who would prefer a UK applying their ideology but realise it won't happen). That leaves anyone pro-independence needing to persuade 3 to 4 in 20 more to come over to their viewpoint and yesterday they got up the first 2 but still finished almost 11 percentage-points behind.

[HibeeJibee]

Obviously the Dumfries and Borders results are due to their proximity to England and, I also suspect, farming communities being addicted to the current subsidy culture.

I'm from the eastern Borders and your first point is correct... your second I don't think would be a major one. Many many in the Borders and in D&G genuinely feel British and believe in the United Kingdom and a higher proportion of them are from the rest of the UK: that's an emotional reason to vote 'No'. We're also close to England, have a good proportion of small businesses and of elderly, and are more affluent compared to former industrial areas: that's an economic reason to vote 'No'. Finally there is little tradition of SNP support - and there is great tradition of Conservative and Lib Dem support (at the 2011 election were was a swing to the Tories in Roxburgh & Berwickshire constinuency despite the nationwide effect being quite the opposte): people have less of a problem with Westminister and had more of a problem with Salmond.

When you look at the Scottish Borders, the breakdown was 33% for 'Yes' and 67% for 'No'. I've no doubt that in Berwickshire and Peebleshire the figures are probably breaking 30/70 as the bigger towns like Galashiels and particularly Hawick would have had more 'Yes' voters and the rural parts fewer. In my own town and area we saw our own small version of the "loud" presence from 'Yes' - posters in windows, signage, and so on - but the strong majority of people were always quietly and solidly 'No', infact very often aghast at thoughts of seperatism.

What surprised me was that other rural areas further north voted as strongly 'No' as they did e.g. Aberdeenshire, Perthshire, Stirling, Moray.

[Monkey Tennis]

I'm from the eastern Borders and your first point is correct... your second I don't think would be a major one. Many many in the Borders and in D&G genuinely feel British and believe in the United Kingdom and a higher proportion of them are from the rest of the UK: that's an emotional reason to vote 'No'. We're also close to England, have a good proportion of small businesses and of elderly, and are more affluent compared to former industrial areas: that's an economic reason to vote 'No'. Finally there is little tradition of SNP support - and there is great tradition of Conservative and Lib Dem support (at the 2011 election were was a swing to the Tories in Roxburgh & Berwickshire constinuency despite the nationwide effect being quite the opposte): people have less of a problem with Westminister and had more of a problem with Salmond.

When you look at the Scottish Borders, the breakdown was 33% for 'Yes' and 67% for 'No'. I've no doubt that in Berwickshire and Peebleshire the figures are probably breaking 30/70 as the bigger towns like Galashiels and particularly Hawick would have had more 'Yes' voters and the rural parts fewer. In my own town and area we saw our own small version of the "loud" presence from 'Yes' - posters in windows, signage, and so on - but the strong majority of people were always quietly and solidly 'No', infact very often aghast at thoughts of seperatism.

What surprised me was that other rural areas further north voted as strongly 'No' as they did e.g. Aberdeenshire, Perthshire, Stirling, Moray.

Much of what you observe about the Borders holds true for D&G, but not all of it.

Parts of Dumfries and Galloway do have an SNP tradition, but that sat alongside a Tory one.

Affluence is also receding in the south west these days. It's an area of low pay and the correlation between being rural and being wealthy is often overstated.

[Newbornbairn]

I'm from the eastern Borders and your first point is correct... your second I don't think would be a major one. Many many in the Borders and in D&G genuinely feel British and believe in the United Kingdom and a higher proportion of them are from the rest of the UK: that's an emotional reason to vote 'No'. We're also close to England, have a good proportion of small businesses and of elderly, and are more affluent compared to former industrial areas: that's an economic reason to vote 'No'. Finally there is little tradition of SNP support - and there is great tradition of Conservative and Lib Dem support (at the 2011 election were was a swing to the Tories in Roxburgh & Berwickshire constinuency despite the nationwide effect being quite the opposte): people have less of a problem with Westminister and had more of a problem with Salmond.

When you look at the Scottish Borders, the breakdown was 33% for 'Yes' and 67% for 'No'. I've no doubt that in Berwickshire and Peebleshire the figures are probably breaking 30/70 as the bigger towns like Galashiels and particularly Hawick would have had more 'Yes' voters and the rural parts fewer. In my own town and area we saw our own small version of the "loud" presence from 'Yes' - posters in windows, signage, and so on - but the strong majority of people were always quietly and solidly 'No', infact very often aghast at thoughts of seperatism.

What surprised me was that other rural areas further north voted as strongly 'No' as they did e.g. Aberdeenshire, Perthshire, Stirling, Moray.

I was talking to two farmers in Stranraer on Wednesday and they were committed No voters. One reason put forward was the uncertainty over their subsidies in any interim period before rejoining the EU. I pointed out that Nicola Sturgeon had guaranteed all subsidies would be matched pound for pound by the Scottish government and they just laughed. They said one farmer alone nearby received over £2million a year from the EU and there were lots more on similar amounts. They reckoned Sturgeon was committing Scottish taxpayers to a huge burden that could last not months, but years.