General Election 2015

[H_B]

Not necessarily, not if your anti englishness only forms part of a wider personality defect - some folk might be as happy, if not happier kicking shit out of muslims, or protestants, or Catholics... and yet still hate the English. Where's their natural home?

And yet.... anti-English racists like Bruce Ogilvie, Settler Watch and SnG declare theyir support for the SNP

Why is this?

But apart from these anti-English racists that are avowed SNP supporters....what evidence is there that racists support the SNP? That about the size of it?

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Just for my own interest, what are the anti-English organisations that support the SNP? So far we've had lots of pluralised descriptions of the organisations and people who support the SNP but one total weirdo cited.

It's really no better than the total weaksauce Labour = Orange Order argument.

[H_B]

Just for my own interest, what are the anti-English organisations that support the SNP? So far we've had lots of pluralised descriptions of the organisations and people who support the SNP but one total weirdo cited.

It's really no better than the total weaksauce Labour = Orange Order argument.

Siol nan Gaidheal .... proto fascists.

Now the vehicle of previous "Settler Watch" anti-English racist Bruce Ogilvie.

Strong nationalists... who view the SNP as a necessary evil, but a bit soft.

[Baxter Parp]

Not necessarily, not if your anti englishness only forms part of a wider personality defect - some folk might be as happy, if not happier kicking shit out of muslims, or protestants, or Catholics... and yet still hate the English. Where's their natural home?

That's H_B's worst pile of pish yet. As if nobody's ever met a unionist with anti English sentiment. This is a low point even for him.

[H_B]

The problem the SNP have is that their move to civic nationalism (which has seen a surge of support) hasn't seen them leave behind the Bruce Ogilvie types.

They are still the natural, and indeed only, home for these SnG type scumbags, or the type of racist offender who tells English people to "f**k off home where they belong" or attack them for wearing a Union Jack tshirt, for example. both of which are examples of the type of racism English immigrants have faced and continue to face in Scotland.

[renton]

Why do you keep repeating "Scottish self-government".

It's secession. From the rest of the UK. Removing us from a political union with those nasty English people.

I'll ask again, in the vain hope you might answer, rather than run away from it again :-

"Why do known anti-English racist organisations.in Scotland, and known anti-English racists like Bruce Ogilvie, support the SNP?

Is it because they want to protect the NHS?

Because it's a basically accurate assertation of what the SNP want.

I'd assume both groups, if they are as fascist and anti english as you say they are, want to drive the English out of Scotland and think independence is the best way to do that, not that the lack of that situation has stopped them trying. Despite this, you have not been able to link the majority of racist attacks to SNP support, I don't think you can either - and I don't for a minute think that it's true either, as I say, I know plenty of socially backwards people who can't use the word 'English' without putting an expletive in front of it who voted no. They might hate the 'fucking English', but they like being British.

Still, if we accept your argument, can we also accept that the Labour party, being the only effective opposition to the SNP and de facto defender of the Union are now the 'natural home' of sectarian bigotry in Scotland?

[H_B]

I'd assume both groups, if they are as fascist and anti english as you say they are, want to drive the English out of Scotland and think independence is the best way to do that,

Exactly. That's exactly it. If you are the type of person who believes we are "oppressed" and are the kind of c**t who will abuse someone because they have moved here from England, that's exactly the mindset. The SNP are their vehicle.

That's not to say there aren't those who find that abhorrent who also use the SNP as the vehicle for their ends - more localised self-governance. It's not Nicola Sturgeon's fault that anti-English racists vote SNP. She hasn't encouraged this and can't exactly tell them not to.

and de facto defender of the Union are now the 'natural home' of sectarian bigotry in Scotland?

What's the causal link between sectarian bigotry and the aims of the Labour Party, or unionism?

I don't see what an anti-Catholic bigot for example would get out of the union staying in place, or Labour winning an election.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Siol nan Gaidheal .... proto fascists.

Now the vehicle of previous "Settler Watch" anti-English racist Bruce Ogilvie.

Strong nationalists... who view the SNP as a necessary evil, but a bit soft.

So your answer is this Bruce Ogilvie guy. A compelling takedown of the SNP and its supporters this has been

I criticised whoever it was on another thread that was straining to paint Anne Begg and Labour in a bad light for sharing a photo with some far right guy. This is exactly the same thing.

Scotland has its weirdo bigots like anywhere else but its pleasing that they remain in the extreme minority, whilst only down the road politics is pulled massively to the right by a now mainstream, nutty right party. As I said earlier, I bet the good people of England must secretly pine for a renamed SNP.

[renton]

The problem the SNP have is that their move to civic nationalism (which has seen a surge of support) hasn't seen them leave behind the Bruce Ogilvie types.

They are still the natural, and indeed only, home for these SnG type scumbags, or the type of racist offender who tells English people to "f**k off home where they belong" or attack them for wearing a Union Jack tshirt, for example. both of which are examples of the type of racism English immigrants have faced and continue to face in Scotland.

If these idiots are all about independence, wouldn't they be as likely to attack a Scot for that, as they would an Englishman?

[John Lambies Doos]

As the principle Unionist party in Scotland, does that make Labour the 'natural home' of anti Catholic bigotry then?

Yes it does, they also play the Catholic card when it suits.

Labour are just despicable yet some sheep keep voting them.

They have held Scotland back for 50 yrs. Labour disgust me.

[renton]

Exactly. That's exactly it. If you are the type of person who believes we are "oppressed" and are the kind of c**t who will abuse someone because they have moved here from England, that's exactly the mindset. The SNP are their vehicle.

That's not to say there aren't those who find that abhorrent who also use the SNP as the vehicle for their ends - more localised self-governance. It's not Nicola Sturgeon's fault that anti-English racists vote SNP. She hasn't encouraged this and can't exactly tell them not to.

What's the causal link between sectarian bigotry and the aims of the Labour Party, or unionism?

I don't see what an anti-Catholic bigot for example would get out of the union staying in place, or Labour winning an election.

And yet we keep coming back to this, you've mentioned a group and one guy's name - you have not and I suspect cannot make that link between the exmaple you gave and the majority of anti English attacks in Scotland, you have not provided a causal link between the majority of those attacks and a desire for independence and further a support for the SNP (for all you know they are all hiding in the Scottish Greens) the fact Bruce Ogilvie exists does not mean that every attack on an Englishman is motivated by a desire on the assailant's part to demand Scottish independence.

You could also make the link that the OO claim to have a long proud history of defending the Protestant British throne, and that above all else, the maintenance of the Union is worth voting for Murphy as the lesser of two evils. Therefore making Labour their natural home. It's ridiculous but also entirely your argument in reverse.

[H_B]

Scotland has its weirdo bigots like anywhere else but its pleasing that they remain in the extreme minority, whilst only down the road politics is pulled massively to the right by a now mainstream, nutty right party. As I said earlier, I bet the good people of England must secretly pine for a renamed SNP.

UKIP got over 10% of the votes in the last Euro Elections here. And have an MEP due to this. I wouldn't call that an "extreme minority".

[H_B]

the fact Bruce Ogilvie exists does not mean that every attack on an Englishman is motivated by a desire for the assailant to demand Scottish independence.

But anti-English racists like Ogilvie, and the organisations he has been a member of through the years, support the SNP. Because it's the political vehicle to realise the aims of their hatred.

Again, if you choose to pretend that Scottish Nationalism, contrary to the evidence, doesn't attract anti-English racists then that's your preserve.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

UKIP got over 10% of the votes in the last Euro Elections here. And have an MEP due to this. I wouldn't call that an "extreme minority".

I would.

In any case, I thought the excuse for voting UKIP in the Euro elections was getting it up the SNP? Now people who voted UKIP in that election are genuine bigots?

Hmm, mask slipping and all that.

[H_B]

I would.

In any case, I thought the excuse for voting UKIP in the Euro elections was getting it up the SNP? Now people who voted UKIP in that election are genuine bigots?

Hmm, mask slipping and all that.

I've never voted UKIP, so I have no idea why those voting UKIP would do so.

There are a lot of racists in Scotland, so that will likely be their main catchment area. Well, the non anti-English racists of course, as the SNP already have those types hanging onto their coattails.

[renton]

But anti-English racists like Ogilvie, and the organisations he has been a member of through the years, support the SNP. Because it's the political vehicle to realise the aims of their hatred.

Which still does not provide a causal link between anti-English racism and the SNP, because while some anti English sentiments may be linked to Independence, the corollary does not hold. Frankly, anti English attacks are perpetrated by aresholes with any number of phobias regarding other people, it does not follow that their Anglophobia is a dominating theme when they come to cast a vote, or indeed that they see independence as a way of furthering their Anglophobic goals. As such, while Ogilvie exists and is undoubtedly a bigoted, racist arsehole, it does not follow that the SNP are the 'natural home' for these people, anymore than it follows that Labour are the natural home for anti-catholic sentiment just because they are the principle Unionist party in a country where Unionism and the protestant church have a strong orthogonal relationship.

[H_B]

Which still does not provide a causal link between anti-English racism and the SNP, because while some anti English sentiments may be linked to Independence, the corollary does not hold. Frankly, anti English attacks are perpetrated by aresholes with any number of phobias regarding other people, it does not follow that their Anglophobia is a dominating theme when they come to cast a vote, or indeed that they see independence as a way of furthering their Anglophobic goals. As such, while Ogilvie exists and is undoubtedly a bigoted, racist arsehole, it does not follow that the SNP are the 'natural home' for these people, anymore than it follows that Labour are the natural home for anti-catholic sentiment just because they are the principle Unionist party in a country where Unionism and the protestant church have a strong orthogonal relationship.

Again, why does SnG state that they have always been an organisation who supports the SNP?

It absolutely does hold. We know that proto-fascists and anti-English racist organisations in Scotland declare themselves as supporters of the SNP.

Again, I have no idea why you are being wilfully obtuse here. If your hatred of a race or nationality is such that you physically, or verbally, abuse English people the SNP , who are seeking to remove us from the UK, are absolutely your natural home.

Unfortunately for you, Nationalism attracts scum.

[renton]

Again, why does SnG state that they have always been an organisation who supports the SNP?

I gave you the answer above, yet that still fails entirely to be evidence to suggest that the SNP hoovers up the bigot, racist vote or that it is the natural home for it, because you have failed to provide evidence that anglophobic attacks are motivated by a desire for independence in any case, let alone a majority of cases. The existence of SnG and Ogilvie do not change that fundamental fact. Yes, they exist and yes they are bigots and racists, but are they responsible for the majority of racist attacks on the English?

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

I've never voted UKIP, so I have no idea why those voting UKIP would do so.

There are a lot of racists in Scotland, so that will likely be their main catchment area. Well, the non anti-English racists of course, as the SNP already have those types hanging onto their coattails.

The evidence for this will be produced any moment now, I'm sure.

As in something that attaches types and organisations of people to the SNP, not further bleating about some fruitcake the Telegraph have found.

[renton]

Again, why does SnG state that they have always been an organisation who supports the SNP?

It absolutely does hold. We know that proto-fascists and anti-English racist organisations in Scotland declare themselves as supporters of the SNP.

Again, I have no idea why you are being wilfully obtuse here. If your hatred of a race or nationality is such that you physically, or verbally, abuse English people the SNP , who are seeking to remove us from the UK, are absolutely your natural home.

Unfortunately for you, Nationalism attracts scum.

Of course it fucking doesn't hold. You have provided evidence of one group of fascists and one name of one guy. You still have not provided evidence that the majority of anglophobic attacks are carried out by organisations that desire independence, therefore how can you call the SNP their natural home, it remains a clear failing in your thinking that anglophobia, to the point of abuse, makes your first instinct one to remove Scotland from the UK. It is not necessarily that linear or simple a relationship.

Unfortunate for you as well, given the various unionist parties reliance on British nationalism means you must be lining up with scum, since whoever you vote for won't just be hoovering these idiots up by chance, but actively courting them.