The Cost Of Football Survey

[craigkillie]

Our crowds as a percentage of capacity as shown for England and Germany must be quite poor, how many sell outs will there be in the premier league this season, if any?

Not really sure why this statistic is in any way relevant? I'm sure most clubs would rather have 6000 fans in a 12000 seater stadium rather than selling out a 2000 seater.

[Dindeleux]

You've hit the nail firmly on the head. Some of the best facilities for fans in the country and we barely advertise it or do anything to encourage fans down.

IMO, we should be communicating with supporters clubs from visiting teams and arranging for them to arrive at the ground early to use the Sports Bar etc. Watch the early kick-offs, get something to eat and a few beers before the game, knowing you can leave at 2.55 and make kick-off. Have someone from the club going round the SB asking if everyone has tickets for the match and selling to those who don't, which means more drinking/eating time and less time spent in queues.

It's simple wee things like that which encourages people to come down the next time the teams meet.

Great shout.

We should also, for games with Caley, Aberdeen etc offer some kind of hotel deal. Lunch in the hotel, ticket for the game, dinner afterwards and a room for a night for one price. Advertise it as an opportunity for a "Football Weekender" or something similar.

[yoda]

The problem with attendances in Scotland compared to all these big nations is simple. We have far too many clubs playing in our top 4 leagues for our population.

As has been mentioned on here, per head of population we have more people going to football than most of Europe. But average fans per team available in our country is so low compared to countries like Germany and England

England with a population of around 54m has 92 clubs = 587,000 people per team

Scotland with a population of around 5.3m has 42 clubs = 126,000 people per team

Considering the huge amount of people in Scotland that support 2 teams its always going to be difficult to find enough people to support the 40 teams.

Only answer imo is to merge clubs in different areas, I accept that this would cause a lot of anger and rage initially but you have to think 30/40 years down the line with new generations of fans able to support for example a single Highland team, instead of having ICT and Ross County bringing in 4k every week we might have a single team bringing in 8k+ every week. Same with the Dundee teams.

Another problem that exists in Scotland and not in Europe is our obsession with the past i.e. why cant Dundee and Dundee United merge to be Dundee City - because the fans care too much about the history of their own club instead of looking to the future and building a club that could bring in 20,000 fans every week and possibly challenge the OF.

Do we really need Raith Rovers, Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath and East Fife all playing in the same area when we can merge them all into one club?

I get that people will say well lets merge Celtic and Rangers then if thats what you think, difference is that Celtic and Rangers, Hearts and Hibs don't need to merge, they have the fan base to continue as they are

[craigkillie]

The problem with attendances in Scotland compared to all these big nations is simple. We have far too many clubs playing in our top 4 leagues for our population.

As has been mentioned on here, per head of population we have more people going to football than most of Europe. But average fans per team available in our country is so low compared to countries like Germany and England

England with a population of around 54m has 92 clubs = 587,000 people per team

Scotland with a population of around 5.3m has 42 clubs = 126,000 people per team

Considering the huge amount of people in Scotland that support 2 teams its always going to be difficult to find enough people to support the 40 teams.

Only answer imo is to merge clubs in different areas, I accept that this would cause a lot of anger and rage initially but you have to think 30/40 years down the line with new generations of fans able to support for example a single Highland team, instead of having ICT and Ross County bringing in 4k every week we might have a single team bringing in 8k+ every week. Same with the Dundee teams.

Another problem that exists in Scotland and not in Europe is our obsession with the past i.e. why cant Dundee and Dundee United merge to be Dundee City - because the fans care too much about the history of their own club instead of looking to the future and building a club that could bring in 20,000 fans every week and possibly challenge the OF.

Do we really need Raith Rovers, Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath and East Fife all playing in the same area when we can merge them all into one club?

I get that people will say well lets merge Celtic and Rangers then if thats what you think, difference is that Celtic and Rangers, Hearts and Hibs don't need to merge, they have the fan base to continue as they are

I'm not sure why the top 4 leagues is some sort of cut-off where teams below that don't count. England have more than 92 clubs, Scotland have more than 42 clubs.

[stumigoo]

The problem with attendances in Scotland compared to all these big nations is simple. We have far too many clubs playing in our top 4 leagues for our population.

As has been mentioned on here, per head of population we have more people going to football than most of Europe. But average fans per team available in our country is so low compared to countries like Germany and England

England with a population of around 54m has 92 clubs = 587,000 people per team

Scotland with a population of around 5.3m has 42 clubs = 126,000 people per team

Considering the huge amount of people in Scotland that support 2 teams its always going to be difficult to find enough people to support the 40 teams.

Only answer imo is to merge clubs in different areas, I accept that this would cause a lot of anger and rage initially but you have to think 30/40 years down the line with new generations of fans able to support for example a single Highland team, instead of having ICT and Ross County bringing in 4k every week we might have a single team bringing in 8k+ every week. Same with the Dundee teams.

Another problem that exists in Scotland and not in Europe is our obsession with the past i.e. why cant Dundee and Dundee United merge to be Dundee City - because the fans care too much about the history of their own club instead of looking to the future and building a club that could bring in 20,000 fans every week and possibly challenge the OF.

Do we really need Raith Rovers, Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath and East Fife all playing in the same area when we can merge them all into one club?

I get that people will say well lets merge Celtic and Rangers then if thats what you think, difference is that Celtic and Rangers, Hearts and Hibs don't need to merge, they have the fan base to continue as they are

In all seriousness though, why would clubs with so little debt compared to English clubs and with little or no risk of having any real financial danger anytime soon take the risk of alienating their fan base and potentially ruining their future by gambling about potentially getting a few extra fans through the gate in "30/40 years time" after all the "rage" had calmed down.

Also your last point is complete nonsense, pretty much every team in the Scottish league setup have "the fan base to continue as they are", they simply live within their means according to the fan base they have.

[HibeeJibee]

There's as many clubs in Scotland as there are adult males wanting to play of a Saturday.

Comparing "the 92" with "the 42" is a nonsensical concept. (For a starter the Conference in England is also played on a nationwide basis).

Yet a concept we see all too frequently.

EDIT: 736 clubs entered this season's FA Cup, compared to 85 (and 5 qualifiers) in this season's Scottish Cup, which is fairly close to actual proportion.

[stumigoo]

The reason i cut off at 92 and 42 is that is the point before regional leagues, although will take Hibees point that the conference should be included which would give England 116 teams.

Its a simple factual point that we have too many teams playing in our main leagues, christ we only have 7 cities and 42 teams (6x), England has 50 cities and 116 teams (2x). Its mental the amount of teams we have for our size.

Aye im sure they'll all be devastated by alienating their 300 fans

Something needs to be done to get fans interested in the Scottish leagues again. We've stuck with the status quo for far too long and nothing is getting better.

It also cannot be accepted by me that teams like Aberdeen, St Johnstone, Dundee United who get roughly 10k, 6k and 8k for their normal home games suddenly turn up at a Cup Final with 20,000+ fans. Maybe if these glory hunters turned up every week the game might improve.

Aye and telling fans "by the way your club doesn't exist anymore" that will get people more interested in the Scottish leagues. The fact that you belittle the smaller teams in Scotland by mocking their "300 fans" shows how little your opinion actually means.

[PauloPerth]

Are there?

It isn't, that's simply incorrect.

Unless you're OF, diminished Dundee, or troubled Kilmarnock... and OF's will return once Rangers reach the Premiership.

Aberdeen

2003-04... 10,389

2013-14... 12,918

Celtic

2003-04... 58,181

2013-14... 47,079

Dundee

2003-04... 7,090

2013-14... 4,738 (in tier 2)

Dundee Utd

2003-04... 7,722

2013-14... 7,599

Hamilton

2003-04... 1,403 (in tier 3)

2013-14... 1,436 (in tier 2)

Hearts

2003-04... 11,947

2013-14... 14,123

Hibs

2003-04... 9,138

2013-14... 11,027

Inverness

2003-04... 2,375 (in tier 2)

2013-14... 3,558

Kilmarnock

2003-04... 6,966

2013-14... 4,250

Motherwell

2003-04... 6,225

2013-14... 5,175

Partick

2003-04... 4,719

2013-14... 5,001

Ross County

2003-04... 3,203 (in tier 2)

2013-14... 3,787

Rangers

2003-04... 48,992

2013-14... 42,647 (in tier 3)

St Johnstone

2003-04... 2,634 (in tier 2)

2013-14... 3,806

St Mirren

2003-04... 2,784 (in tier 2)

2013-14... 4,511

Okay thanks for that, looks like I was havering shite on attendance for a decade ago. Am genuinely really surprised at those figures.

I was thinking about St Johnstone crowds especially and we are definitely down, possibly over a 15-20 year period rather than 10:

Look at average attendance figures from 15 years ago, 1998-99 premier league season:

Celtic 59,233

Rangers 49,094

Hearts 14,232

Aberdeen 12,713

Kilmarnock 11,184

Dundee United 9,187

Motherwell 8,533

Dunfermline Athletic 7,375

Dundee 7,178

St. Johnstone 7,038

So Saints were the poorest supported with an average crowd of over 7000!! The kilmarnock, Motherwell, Dunfermline and Saints crowds especially were massive compared to now.

[PauloPerth]

The reason i cut off at 92 and 42 is that is the point before regional leagues, although will take Hibees point that the conference should be included which would give England 116 teams.

Its a simple factual point that we have too many teams playing in our main leagues, christ we only have 7 cities and 42 teams (6x), England has 50 cities and 116 teams (2x). Its mental the amount of teams we have for our size.

Aye im sure they'll all be devastated by alienating their 300 fans

Something needs to be done to get fans interested in the Scottish leagues again. We've stuck with the status quo for far too long and nothing is getting better.

It also cannot be accepted by me that teams like Aberdeen, St Johnstone, Dundee United who get roughly 10k, 6k and 8k for their normal home games suddenly turn up at a Cup Final with 20,000+ fans. Maybe if these glory hunters turned up every week the game might improve.

The problem is when you merge teams, you don't get both attendances combined. You lose a lot of people.

You would think inverness would have huge crowds, with being a fairly successful premier league team in a big catchment area with limited competition for support. They averaged around 4000 last year despite finishing top 6 and getting to a cup final. The area hasn't fully bought into the merger of 2 local sides to create their own league team.

There is very little appetite for new teams unfortunately, I know I wouldn't go and watch a st johnstone team merged with a dundee side or Dunfermline etc. Most of the core support for our clubs is based on tradition, and is often handed down through generations.

It's the same for all the clubs moving to new towns, in order to capitalise on a bigger catchment area. Has the Cumbernauld move done much for Clyde?

[HibeeJibee]

The reason i cut off at 92 and 42 is that is the point before regional leagues, although will take Hibees point that the conference should be included which would give England 116 teams.

Its a simple factual point that we have too many teams playing in our main leagues, christ we only have 7 cities and 42 teams (6x), England has 50 cities and 116 teams (2x). Its mental the amount of teams we have for our size.

What a load of wild nonsense.

We do not have "too many teams in our main leagues". We have the arrangement of teams which circumstance, the march of history, and the number of people playing and attending football in this country has dictated... Chat of having "too many clubs" or "needing to merge clubs" is, end-of-story, twaddle.

And in any case - force 2 existing SPFL clubs together and you'll get 3 clubs, the merged one (poorly supported) and 2 phoenix clubs (poorly supported). Fans won't accept it all then meekly move allegiance.

Something needs to be done to get fans interested in the Scottish leagues again. We've stuck with the status quo for far too long and nothing is getting better.

Sorry - "again"; evidence? Scots in 2014 are more interested than their European contemporaries; their fellow Scots following other sports; and most of their own ancestors.

It also cannot be accepted by me that teams like Aberdeen, St Johnstone, Dundee United who get roughly 10k, 6k and 8k for their normal home games suddenly turn up at a Cup Final with 20,000+ fans. Maybe if these glory hunters turned up every week the game might improve.

This phenomenon happens to every club, everywhere.

Okay thanks for that, looks like I was havering shite on attendance for a decade ago. Am genuinely really surprised at those figures.

I was thinking about St Johnstone crowds especially and we are definitely down, possibly over a 15-20 year period rather than 10:

Look at average attendance figures from 15 years ago, 1998-99 premier league season:

...

So Saints were the poorest supported with an average crowd of over 7000!! The kilmarnock, Motherwell, Dunfermline and Saints crowds especially were massive compared to now.

Nonetheless, in historical terms crowds at the current time are still very high. Despite the hand-wringing tosh of certain posters and their myths, there were - for example - more clubs averaging over 3,000 in the last few seasons than at any point in history. Also, as many averaging over 10,000 than virtually any point in history.

[Quitongo's Left Peg]

Great shout.

We should also, for games with Caley, Aberdeen etc offer some kind of hotel deal. Lunch in the hotel, ticket for the game, dinner afterwards and a room for a night for one price. Advertise it as an opportunity for a "Football Weekender" or something similar.

Great idea. Maybe even throw in a round of golf at Dundonald on the Sunday too for an extra few quid.

[Dindeleux]

Great idea. Maybe even throw in a round of golf at Dundonald on the Sunday too for an extra few quid.

I'm not really sure if you are being serious here or if you think I've gone overboard but we really need to do more to get people into the club.

[Quitongo's Left Peg]

I'm not really sure if you are being serious here or if you think I've gone overboard but we really need to do more to get people into the club.

Being deadly serious. Get a link-up with the golf course and advertise a "stay and play" weekend. Fitba' on the Saturday, gowf on the Sunday. Price it right and we could get more than a few interested parties.

[Booker-T]

Best facilities for fans in Scotland with their sports bar and hotel. Recently got a steak & haggis pie it was that good went back and bought another , very delicious.

Back on subject here is an article from the toilet rag..............

WATCHING Barcelona and Bayern Munich is cheaper than following every team in Scotland with the exception of Peterhead.

A comprehensive new study has highlighted the increasing cost of attending football games in this country compared with watching the best teams on the planet.

The staggering results of the BBC Sport Price of Football report show how expensive ticket prices are in Scotland in relation to those on the continent.

The cheapest season tickets at Barcelona and Bayern can be snapped up for £103 and £109.

Of all our 42 clubs only League One outfit Peterhead, at £90, charge less than the Spanish and German giants.

The least expensive season ticket in the top flight is Inverness at £200 while it costs supporters three times as much to follow Dundee, Hamilton, Ross County and Partick Thistle than it does the two European super powers.

Prices in the Championship even dwarf the Bundesliga with Hibs charging £355 for their cheapest season ticket – the highest in any of the four divisions.

Alloa and Livingston offer best value at £190 and £180 in the second tier while Falkirk strike a happy medium at £250.

The average Premiership season ticket costs £339 compared with £508 in the English top flight, although both are miles more than the Bundesliga where the average price is just £138.

Andrew Jenkin, head of Supporters Direct in Scotland, who promote more fan involvement and fan ownership, reckons all our professional clubs should be taking a leaf out of the German book.

He said: “It is a startling statistic that watching football in Scotland is more expensive than following two of the biggest clubs in the world.

“Bayern and Barcelona are perfect examples to try to replicate. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that these two huge clubs are part fan owned and are in touch with what the supporters want.

“There will always be a demand to watch Bayern and Barcelona but they do not take advantage of that.

“They don’t short-change customers because

“I know there are also expensive tickets at Bayern and Barca and that statistics don’t tell the full story but our clubs could learn by adopting a similar blueprint.

“The whole fan experience in the Bundesliga is much better than here. As well as tickets costing less, supporters can also drink at matches and there are standing areas in most grounds.

“This all contributes to the huge attendances most weekends.”

The BBC study is now in its fourth year, having begun in 2011, and is the largest of its kind in Britain, covering 176 clubs in 11 divisions plus a broad survey of top leagues in Europe.

Rangers were the only club, north or south of the border, who failed to respond to the Beeb’s in-depth questionnaire.

It covers everything from admission prices and the cost of replica shirts to how much punters have to shell out for a pie and cuppa.

The findings also revealed the cost of a match-day ticket in the Premiership has increased by almost eight per cent – up from £18.92 to £20.42 since 2011.

Watching the national team isn’t cheap either with the SFA charging £45 to watch Saturday’s Euro qualifier with Georgia . They also want the Tartan Army to shell out £60 for next month’s friendly with England at Celtic Park.

Jenkin said: “Sometimes you have to look beyond the bare statistics and there are plenty clubs in Scotland trying to come up with initiatives to get fans through the turnstiles. Albion Rovers have to be commended for their scheme which allows fans to pay whatever they can afford. Livingston and Falkirk have also introduced initiatives.

“Not everyone is taking supporters for granted but I think the study does show football in this country is still too expensive.

“Hopefully, with the figures there in black and white some clubs will look at their pricing structure and act accordingly.”

Arsenal is the most expensive club in Europe to watch with season tickets ranging from £1014 to a mind-boggling £2013.

At the other end of the scale, Peterhead’s £90 is cheaper than anywhere else in the top four divisions of Scottish football and less than the top five divisions in England. The Scottish League One side also charge the least for a match-day ticket, at £6.

Arsenal have the most expensive ticket in the UK at £97, although that is £29 less than last year’s top-priced £126.

Chelsea’s cheapest ticket is £50, the highest-priced in the Premier League, and while Newcastle fans might be desperate to see the back of owner Mike Ashley, the £15 seats he offers at St James’ Park are the best value in England’s top flight.

Overall the average price of tickets across English football has risen at almost twice the rate of the cost of living since 2011. Compared with 12 months ago, the cheapest match day tickets in their top four divisions is up 4.4 per cent from 12 months ago, from £20.58 to £21.49.

Derby and Sheffield Wednesday’s £10 ticket is the cheapest in the top four leagues in England – matched only by Southport in the Conference.

3 or 4 Barcelona leagues game would cost more than a scottish premiership season ticket.

https://tickets-fcb.fcbarcelona.com/fcbarcelona/en_US/entradas/evento/1933/session/105021/step1r2?utm_source=web-fcb&utm_medium=background-ticketing-en&utm_campaign=fulf08-eib

[Daydream]

Okay thanks for that, looks like I was havering shite on attendance for a decade ago. Am genuinely really surprised at those figures.

I was thinking about St Johnstone crowds especially and we are definitely down, possibly over a 15-20 year period rather than 10:

Look at average attendance figures from 15 years ago, 1998-99 premier league season:

Celtic 59,233

Rangers 49,094

Hearts 14,232

Aberdeen 12,713

Kilmarnock 11,184

Dundee United 9,187

Motherwell 8,533

Dunfermline Athletic 7,375

Dundee 7,178

St. Johnstone 7,038

So Saints were the poorest supported with an average crowd of over 7000!! The kilmarnock, Motherwell, Dunfermline and Saints crowds especially were massive compared to now.

Motherwell and Killie - wow, great crowds back then.

[stumigoo]

3 or 4 Barcelona leagues game would cost more than a scottish premiership season ticket.

https://tickets-fcb.fcbarcelona.com/fcbarcelona/en_US/entradas/evento/1933/session/105021/step1r2?utm_source=web-fcb&utm_medium=background-ticketing-en&utm_campaign=fulf08-eib

That isn't the whole story though. The cheapest season tickets on offer to local Barca fans, and in the same manner local Bayern, Dortmund etc fans are all incredibly cheap. The tickets that are put on general sale for individual matches are much more expensive.

[Booker-T]

That isn't the whole story though. The cheapest season tickets on offer to local Barca fans, and in the same manner local Bayern, Dortmund etc fans are all incredibly cheap. The tickets that are put on general sale for individual matches are much more expensive.

The maximum discount at Barcelona is 59% but you still have to pay for your membership to obtain this and even then 59% is still the highest discount you'll receive.

You still have to go on waiting lists for both memberships and season tickets.

[Booker-T]

The problem with attendances in Scotland compared to all these big nations is simple. We have far too many clubs playing in our top 4 leagues for our population.

As has been mentioned on here, per head of population we have more people going to football than most of Europe. But average fans per team available in our country is so low compared to countries like Germany and England

England with a population of around 54m has 92 clubs = 587,000 people per team

Scotland with a population of around 5.3m has 42 clubs = 126,000 people per team

Considering the huge amount of people in Scotland that support 2 teams its always going to be difficult to find enough people to support the 40 teams.

Only answer imo is to merge clubs in different areas, I accept that this would cause a lot of anger and rage initially but you have to think 30/40 years down the line with new generations of fans able to support for example a single Highland team, instead of having ICT and Ross County bringing in 4k every week we might have a single team bringing in 8k+ every week. Same with the Dundee teams.

Another problem that exists in Scotland and not in Europe is our obsession with the past i.e. why cant Dundee and Dundee United merge to be Dundee City - because the fans care too much about the history of their own club instead of looking to the future and building a club that could bring in 20,000 fans every week and possibly challenge the OF.

Do we really need Raith Rovers, Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath and East Fife all playing in the same area when we can merge them all into one club?

I get that people will say well lets merge Celtic and Rangers then if thats what you think, difference is that Celtic and Rangers, Hearts and Hibs don't need to merge, they have the fan base to continue as they are

whit a load of shyte

[PrestersKTID]

Seeing the crowds from 15 odd years ago is depressing but understandable. It was cheaper for a start and most teams had spent big on players. Rangers and celtic were competing with the premiership for spending. You wanted to go to old firm games for a change to see your team try their luck against quality players liek Kanchelskis, van bronkorst, de boer or Larsson sutton and Moravcik.

The only real way imo to entice exiled fans to a lesser quality of product is by price reduction/incentives. Scottish football is treading water on the backs of blind loyal fans. Hats off to Aberdeen and Dundee united though who have managed to maintain or increase their average attendance in the past couple years.

[stumigoo]

Your first point is true, the 'brand' was maybe better back then with clubs spending huge sums of money on players (with varying success). However the irony is that despite the big crowds, the league would have been losing more money then than in its entire history because of these massive transfers.