renton Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Should all areas of Scotland have to vote Yes in a referendum on independence? After all we are one big Scottish family and surely we all have to agree to any constituitonal change. Surgeon is engaging in blatant politicking to appeal to the less bright amongst her flock. She knows full well she is taking bollocks. Again, this always rocks back on a basically irrational idea of what constitutes the fundamental identity set. You can claim that Scotland is not special as an organising administrative block and therefore if Aberdeen or fife wanted to go it alone, then it could. You can make the same argument in the other direction claiming there is nothing special about the UK as an organising set. Ultimately these things are not decided in a vacuum and have to be taken alongside the cultural, political and geographical histories and stories we tell ourselves. Ultimately the idea of Scotland persists, therefore the break up of Scotland into smaller blocks is seen as abnormal, the same is felt by many of the UK as well - hence the (unresolved) point of contention that defines modern Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 There's revolt against the EU all over the place, Hungary, Italy, France to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tio Pepe Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Again, this always rocks back on a basically irrational idea of what constitutes the fundamental identity set. You can claim that Scotland is not special as an organising administrative block and therefore if Aberdeen or fife wanted to go it alone, then it could. You can make the same argument in the other direction claiming there is nothing special about the UK as an organising set. Ultimately these things are not decided in a vacuum and have to be taken alongside the cultural, political and geographical histories and stories we tell ourselves. Ultimately the idea of Scotland persists, therefore the break up of Scotland into smaller blocks is seen as abnormal, the same is felt by many of the UK as well - hence the (unresolved) point of contention that defines modern Scotland. Some parts of Scotland have very different cultural, political and geographical histories than others. Scotland effectively is a convention. We share an island and at some point in the past man made boundaries were drawn to create a nation. Man made boundaries drawn 400 years ago or 1000 years ago or whenever have no different authority than those drawn yesterday or tomorrow, other than convention. If people believe in self-determination they shoudl accept that it is not for them to grant who has that right dependent on whether it suits an individual's or groups bigger picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthEnclosure Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Labour, Lib Dems, SNP etc don't want the people to have a say on Europe. Only the Tories and UKIP want the people to have a say. Unbelieveable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Labour, Lib Dems, SNP etc don't want the people to have a say on Europe. Only the Tories and UKIP want the people to have a say. Unbelieveable. Why is it unbelievable? Leaving the EU would be a disaster for Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Some parts of Scotland have very different cultural, political and geographical histories than others. Scotland effectively is a convention. We share an island and at some point in the past man made boundaries were drawn to create a nation. Man made boundaries drawn 400 years ago or 1000 years ago or whenever have no different authority than those drawn yesterday or tomorrow, other than convention. If people believe in self-determination they shoudl accept that it is not for them to grant who has that right dependent on whether it suits an individual's or groups bigger picture. All true enough, the whole thing rocks back on the concept of the nation-state though, which is oddly persistent. I guess that the nation-state allows for a bellcurve of different experiences within set limits, within which folk are happy to accept the overall control of the convention, so long as folk feel they share with others in the big issues of the day, that is unlikely to change and it's that shared experience that keeps the idea going, for a variety of reasons, not all rational or even real (possibly) there is obviously a tendency for urban Scots and English (for exmaple) to see a common thread of shared experience with rural Scots and English than with each other. At least just now, that tendency has ebed and flowed (for example post war 50s Britain is probably the nadir of Scottish national ambition). For some reason Scotland as a nation persists in folks heads, as does England and Wales long after treaties abolished them as legal entities in their own right, it's the failure of the UK to be the incorporating unitary state it claimed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 So if Wales, Scotland and NI vote to stay and England votes to go, we go. Is that it? In what way is that a union of equal nations? Eh, it's not a union of equal nations Darien Parp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 It's not if you take the popularly accepted viewpoint that the UK is a 'family of nations', it is ludicrous if you take the legal viewpoint that the UK is an incorporated unitary state. However, I suspect the former viewpoint is likely to be more prevalent, even amongst those who voted to remain part of the UK. lolwut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Eh, it's not a union of equal nations Darien Parp. Certainly not legally, we are after all living in an incorporated unitary state. The popular perception though is likely to be more pertinent in these political arguments though, which suggests that the four nations persist and are 'a family'. with agency in thier own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 lolwut? it's always cringy when you start using other folks patter, it was particularly bad when you tried on Supras' really horrendous 'meight' banter. Please refrain from it, it's the forum equivalent of dad dancing at a wedding. I'm sure there is a counter argument to what I said, and you are free to make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Leaving the EU would be a disaster for Scotland. So you were against the Independence referendum ? Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 The popular perception though is likely to be more pertinent in these political arguments though This isn't a "popular perception" outwith the BBC protesting 45 t-shirt wearers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 it's always cringy when you start using other folks patter, it was particularly bad when you tried on Supras' really horrendous 'meight' banter. Supras has never used meight. So, unlucky. However I can understand why you'd want to shift attention away from the utter holocaust of a post you made above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Should all areas of Scotland have to vote Yes in a referendum on independence? After all we are one big Scottish family and surely we all have to agree to any constituitonal change. Surgeon is engaging in blatant politicking to appeal to the less bright amongst her flock. She knows full well she is taking bollocks. Seems like this is what she is saying. Maybe Shetland or Orkney hold a permanent veto in this case? Or the umpteen other areas that voted no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Why is it unbelievable? Leaving the EU would be a disaster for Scotland. A yes vote would have seen us "leave" and have to reapply for membership on entirely new terms. Were you unaware of this? Oh dear.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Seems like this is what she is saying. Maybe Shetland or Orkney hold a permanent veto in this case? Or the umpteen other areas that voted no. The Northern Isles would like to hold a veto on everything given half a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Supras has never used meight. So, unlucky. However I can understand why you'd want to shift attention away from the utter holocaust of a post you made above. eh, he does, and it's bad - you doing it is worse. Even the little snide 'unlucky' on the end of the post is stolen from either VT or Swampy. You lack originality. Also, if my post is such a 'holocaust' then it shouldn't be hard for you to provide a counter, right? Besides it wasn't shifting attention, I always try and reply to the post but if all you write in reply is 'lolwut?' then there isn't much I can do except point out what a shit reply it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 The Northern Isles would like to hold a veto on everything given half a chance. I'D like to have a veto.. Who wouldn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supras Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 eh, he does, and it's bad - you doing it is worse. Even the little snide 'unlucky' on the end of the post is stolen from either VT or Swampy. You lack originality. I did, before I realised that Swampy had used it 2 years prior. I haven't used it since, unlike VT or HB for me it's original or bust. But be easy on him, he clearly got nothing going on. Although I would say meight was a riotous success during its short spell under my influence, it rose far higher in influence than anything Swampy had ever managed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRob72 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Just out of interest, what is the UK's net deficit position from what it pays into/receives from the EU (minus the rebate), any idea? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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