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Support for 2nd independence referendum

Colkitto

By Colkitto
in The Politics Forum

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Mr Bairn

Mr Bairn

Posted
Posted

What's with this new voice of reason Mr Bairn?

Regardless of what posters like Reynard say Westminster can do nothing other than give approval to a democratic elected parliament.

They may hum and haw but at the end of the day it's democracy and it would be unthinkable for Westminster to ignore the will of the people.

If the SNP do prop up Labour at Westminster I would hope they make the transfer of independence referenda legislation to Holyrood a red line issue

Not sure what you mean with that first comment?

The Edinburgh agreement was WM giving their approval to the referendum of this year. Without that it wouldn't have been legally binding (in fact I'm not sure it could have been held at all)

If you look at the Spanish way of doing things, you'll see that not all Western governments are as friendly towards potential independence movements. Westminster could feasibly deny a 2nd referendum on the basis that it's "too soon"

Regardless, I'd like to see Holyrood given the power to call a binding referendum in future.

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HaikuHibee

HaikuHibee

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Lets be clear Tubbsy... You're saying its not one-off. So when's the next ref?

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Tubbs

Tubbs

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Lets be clear Tubbsy... You're saying its not one-off. So when's the next ref?

Another stout defence of yet another about turn/lies from the yes camp.

I would say the next referendum should be when the yes camp comes up with a coherent case that actually addresses the key issues and when they realise that what they are proposing needs the electorate to trust them far more than a routine election so they should stop deceiving everyone with aspirational scenarios presented as all being achievable. So maybe Nicola's lifetime position is about right :thumsup2

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HaikuHibee

HaikuHibee

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Another stout defence of yet another about turn/lies from the yes camp.

I would say the next referendum should be when the yes camp comes up with a coherent case that actually addresses the key issues and when they realise that what they are proposing needs the electorate to trust them far more than a routine election so they should stop deceiving everyone with aspirational scenarios presented as all being achievable. So maybe Nicola's lifetime position is about right :thumsup2

Be specific here. We did not just have one chance. So when's the next one?

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SodjesSixteenIncher

SodjesSixteenIncher

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It's still a long shot but if the SNP did hold the balance of power, it would be a very difficult dilemma indeed.

On one hand, there'd be the chance for the SNP to bend Westminster over their knees and demand some huge policies go through. In the long term though, I can't see how it wouldn't be damaging. If a Labour/SNP/other small party coalition fails, the SNP are the new Lib Dems. If the Labour-led government is a transformative success (I know, I know, just go with it), then people in Scotland will very possibly go back to Labour.

I just can't see how it would end well.

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HaikuHibee

HaikuHibee

Posted
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It's still a long shot but if the SNP did hold the balance of power, it would be a very difficult dilemma indeed.

On one hand, there'd be the chance for the SNP to bend Westminster over their knees and demand some huge policies go through. In the long term though, I can't see how it wouldn't be damaging. If a Labour/SNP/other small party coalition fails, the SNP are the new Lib Dems. If the Labour-led government is a transformative success (I know, I know, just go with it), then people in Scotland will very possibly go back to Labour.

I just can't see how it would end well.

I know what you mean. Labour are still useless though. Not going to change.

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Mr Bairn

Mr Bairn

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It's still a long shot but if the SNP did hold the balance of power, it would be a very difficult dilemma indeed.

On one hand, there'd be the chance for the SNP to bend Westminster over their knees and demand some huge policies go through. In the long term though, I can't see how it wouldn't be damaging. If a Labour/SNP/other small party coalition fails, the SNP are the new Lib Dems. If the Labour-led government is a transformative success (I know, I know, just go with it), then people in Scotland will very possibly go back to Labour.

I just can't see how it would end well.

There's no rule that forces the 3rd party to go in to full coalition though. They could easy extract some concessions from Labour in return for " propping up" a minority government.

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Tubbs

Tubbs

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"Nicola Sturgeon launched the poster campaign."

The "One Opportunity" idea was an SNP thing. I don't recall us having a vote on whether it was going to be "One Opportunity" or not. The YES campaign didn't get a say.

'She unveiled it in Edinburgh with Dennis Canavan, chairman of the Yes Scotland campaign for independence, who has also voiced support for an independent Scotland having its own currency.' NB (My emphasis to assist those struggling here).

An SNP thing :lol::lol:

From the Telegraph 25.8.14:

In a sign of the growing importance the NHS to the independence campaign, the new Yes Scotland document, titled "Debate Guide – The Yes Opportunity", gave supporters a number of statements to circulate about health care.

Scottish public services like the NHS "need" a Yes vote, the guide stated, adding that independence is "our one opportunity to end the cuts agenda imposed by Westminster".

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SodjesSixteenIncher

SodjesSixteenIncher

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I know what you mean. Labour are still useless though. Not going to change.

Of course Labour would be useless. Which would make a coalition with them very dangerous. Especially if/when said failure lets in an utter loonball like Johnson.

There's no rule that forces the 3rd party to go in to full coalition though. They could easy extract some concessions from Labour in return for " propping up" a minority government.

Yeah, the SNP getting some goodies in order to support a minority government would be the ideal scenario. What Labour would be prepared to give away is undetermined though. History seems to repeat itself in alarming fashion when it comes to Labour underestimating the SNP and taking Scotland for granted.

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Tubbs

Tubbs

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Mr Jenkins( remember him) said:

"This puts 'Yes' support at its highest yet in a Survation poll when those still undecided are included, and at 47% excluding don't knows - which confirms we are in touching distance of success next Thursday, and will galvanise all those who are wanting and working for a 'Yes' to redouble their efforts.

"As we say in response to all the polls, we are working flat out to ensure that we achieve a 'Yes' vote, because it's the biggest opportunity the people of Scotland will ever have to build a fairer society and more prosperous economy.

"It is now abundantly clear that the 'No' campaign parties are offering nothing new in terms of more powers, which fall far short of what Scotland needs.

"A 'Yes' vote is Scotland's one opportunity to achieve job-creating powers and protect our NHS from the damaging effects of Westminster privatisation and cuts."

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Tubbs

Tubbs

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You're not getting this are you?

You lot make the arguement that "Devo Max" wasn't on the ballot paper. Well i'm making the arguement that "One Opportunity" wasn't either.

We didn't vote on the basis that it would be "One Opportunity", because it didn't say anywhere on the ballot paper that this was the case. :)

So to complete your fail here, can you just confirm yes or no to your own previous points:

1) One Opportunity was only mentioned a couple of times - Yes or No

2) One Opportunity was only a SNP position - Yes or No.

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Tubbs

Tubbs

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Voting Yes is our one opportunity to do plenty of things.

There is no implication that there is only one opportunity to vote Yes.

At last, something approaching a reasonable effort to explain the concept, well done it certainly beats the denial, lies and it doesn't matter anyway style of approach from some.

Unfortunately it does not cover the linking of it with talk of 'generation' and 'lifetime'.

It is also a bit patronising to those inclined to vote yes, its not as if they were faced with an array of choices (or opportunities) on the paper that they really had to differentiate between- but maybe they got it right on the evidence of some of the yes folk on here.

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ecto

ecto

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Posted

Seen on Twitter, a new YouGov poll has % voting for Westminister as SNP 47, Labour 27, Tories 16, Libs3

Also, if a referendum was called - Yes 48% No 45%

Keep building that tally up bit by bit and we'll get there next time.

have I missed something, is there an #indyref in the near future? If there is then you have a point, if there is not...... Well you know the rest
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