Tom McB Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys? Rascal, we evolved from a common ancestor, but you knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 The current widely accepted model of the big bang, expansion etc, is still just as crazy an idea when you think about it that something came out of nothing. That everything in existence started as an infinitely small point. It's pretty crazy when you think about it. We've just run with those ideas and they've become the accepted norm. Teaching other ideas of creation could be useful in a 'question things' way. It's a bit arrogant to assume that what we currently think is definitely what happened though. No, those ideas have become a working hypothesis as we continue to search for more answers. "We can't explain this bit yet so everything else we know can be ignored. This alone is proof that an invisible man who lives in the sky did it" is not science. Nor should it be taught as if it were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom McB Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 People need to know the history of it, as in 'folk used to believe that all living things were created by God. However, the current most widely accepted scientific paradigm, based on research is the theory of evolution, and the big bang theory, etc' - historical perspective is important, imo. As recently discussed on P & B, though, while The Pope believes in the big bang theory, he still believes that the conditions for it were created by god, so millions of people (if they go along with what The Pope says) still believe in a form of creationism, naw? Most creationists are young Earth types of the "The world is only 6,500 years old" " types so , no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I don't see why it can't be briefly covered in RE. And by this, taught by teachers in their usual lesson rather than organisations of any sort. I think we briefly covered it in first year when we were discussing atheism, agnosticism and belief in god etc. That was the only time we discussed it - a small part of one lesson, which was adequate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 If they’re going to teach Cretinism Creationism in schools, then they should also teach the religion Homer Simpson invented in that episode, as well as the history of the Klingon Empire in History class, the Man/Orc conflict in Middle Earth in Modern Studies, the books of Paul Sheldon in English, the topographical features of Jotunheim in Geography, Quiddich in P.E., the study of the Xenomorph in Biology, how a TIE Fighter operates in different environments in Physics, Gallifrey chemistry in Chemistry, how to programme a system like JARVIS in Computing and cookery lessons from Elzar in Home Economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I think its important to say that this is what some people believe and this is what others believe and let them form their beliefs over time Ermmm no. There's a terrible disease in society today, mostly perpetrated and perpetuated by the media, that we somehow need to have balance. That all views are valid and equally valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamdunk Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 No, those ideas have become a working hypothesis as we continue to search for more answers. "We can't explain this bit yet so everything else we know can be ignored. This alone is proof that an invisible man who lives in the sky did it" is not science. Nor should it be taught as if it were. The thing is, it's kinda become more than a hypothesis. It is basically thought of as what happened these day, and in such a lot of effort has been put into expanding on the base idea. It has become widely accepted, hell someone mentioned the pope also thinks it's what happened. Playing the hypothesis card is fine, but it's put across as... Everything in existence started from an infinitely small point, there was a big bang and the universe exploded into existence. It quickly expanded, then slowly cooled allowing particles, then atoms, then eventually stars and galaxies to form. we think tbh I don't think it's ever something that can be proved (anyway from what I gather, the maths breaks down when you get to the very start of it) Obviously much greater minds than ours have pieced it all together and it is an interesting idea, but it could be miles off. People like to see science as some kind of paragon, that is untouchable, when in fact there's a huge amount of politics involved in it as well. For all we know, someone has come up with a much better hypothesis and just hasn't been able to get any support for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 So are you saying schools shouldn't educate pupils on religion? Only that it exists and bible study as a basis for cultural and literature fundamentals in the same way as you would teach classics. Certainly not as some sort of alternative viable world view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 So are you saying schools shouldn't educate pupils on religion? Nothing faith based should be taught as fact at state expense and organised religion should have zero input on state policy or on the operation of any state institution. People are free to indulge in their pet delusions privately but civil society should be guided by reason and rationality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venti Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Erm scientific ideas cannot be proven, they can only be disproved. Oops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Everything in existence started from an infinitely small point, there was a big bang and the universe exploded into existence. It quickly expanded, then slowly cooled allowing particles, then atoms, then eventually stars and galaxies to form. we think People like to see science as some kind of paragon, that is untouchable, when in fact there's a huge amount of politics involved in it as well. For all we know, someone has come up with a much better hypothesis and just hasn't been able to get any support for it. I think you need to find out a bit more about modern physics if that is your perception. If someone does come up with a new theory in physics that proves to be correct that is still science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 The thing is, it's kinda become more than a hypothesis. It is basically thought of as what happened these day, and in such a lot of effort has been put into expanding on the base idea. It has become widely accepted, hell someone mentioned the pope also thinks it's what happened. Playing the hypothesis card is fine, but it's put across as... Everything in existence started from an infinitely small point, there was a big bang and the universe exploded into existence. It quickly expanded, then slowly cooled allowing particles, then atoms, then eventually stars and galaxies to form. we think tbh I don't think it's ever something that can be proved (anyway from what I gather, the maths breaks down when you get to the very start of it) Obviously much greater minds than ours have pieced it all together and it is an interesting idea, but it could be miles off. People like to see science as some kind of paragon, that is untouchable, when in fact there's a huge amount of politics involved in it as well. For all we know, someone has come up with a much better hypothesis and just hasn't been able to get any support for it. You could pick any point in history and note that scientists believed certain things to be true, only to be proven wrong later once new information came to light. There's no reason to doubt that 200 years from now, some of the things we 'know' to be true today will in fact turn out to be false. Science is constantly updating it's ideas as new discoveries are made and few of those ideas are untouchable. I agree much information has been suppressed or held back over the years due to politics, prejudice and various other reasons. The scientific process isn't perfect but for the most part, it strives to find the answers and expand the range of human knowledge. Religion does the exact opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamdunk Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I think you need to find out a bit more about modern physics if that is your perception. If someone does come up with a new theory in physics that proves to be correct that is still science. OK, but people spend a long time creating and trying to prove these theories, if you don't get support you may never get there and it might never see the light of day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I agree But then again should they educate the big bang as a fact when it will offend a lot of families who believe otherwise? When i was in schools some kids parents wouldn't let them study physics and chemistry because of their religions, it is nothing short of madness! People have the right to believe what they like and remove their children from a classroom if they wish. That doesn't mean their bat shit ideas should have equivalence with evidence based teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 OK, but people spend a long time creating and trying to prove these theories, if you don't get support you may never get there and it might never see the light of day. True. But It's a leap from saying this evidence based peer reviewed theory of how the world works might not right so anything and everything is fair game. Do the "science doesn't know everything crowd" take this view when going to the doctor, using a computer or sitting on a plane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I'd like to think your average eight or nine year old would be able to drive a bus through the cornerstones of creation "science". Bottom line is, if your the crux of your argument hinges on "just because" or "my faith tells me" it's almost certainly pish. You've just described every religion in the world. And yes you're correct its all pish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paranoid android Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Most creationists are young Earth types of the "The world is only 6,500 years old" " types so , no. Might have to take issue with that - if God created it, it's creationism - pedantic but logical. The followers of The Pope - surely the all now believe, as he does, in evolution, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paranoid android Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Erm scientific ideas cannot be proven, they can only be disproved. Oops. You on about falsifiability? Popper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamdunk Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 True. But It's a leap from saying this evidence based peer reviewed theory of how the world works might not right so anything and everything is fair game. Do the "science doesn't know everything crowd" take this view when going to the doctor, using a computer or sitting on a plane? Oh I'm a great fan of science and the many incredible things that have been accomplished by mankind due to our discoveries, don't get me wrong there. Science on it's own doesn't achieve all that much though, it takes money, industry and politics to get it out and to have a major impact on humanity. It's kinda like the south park where they find the cure for aids is to inject yourself with $200,000. Great, but doesn't really help many people. I just like to think that, particularly in the case of the big bang and the various discoveries that have been made which help back up the case, how those discoveries would have been interpreted if there had a different reference point to come from. Things could be totally different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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