Education System

[Gaz]

If only one of the reasons was that poorly performing teachers need to be replaced but we both know that isn't likely to happen.

Would it, in your opinion, be better for the kids if they had continuity of teachers?

I don't disagree that it would be better. It just plainly isn't workable.

[Gaz]

That's because school is largely based on short term memory. Whenever I get into an argument over something, or neither of us are sure what the answer is. All I have to do is whip out an Android and Google it, and the answer will be available in the space of 30 seconds. I don't need to go out of my way by going to the library and spending hours digging for the answer.

The problem is that many kids don't even know they can whip out an Android and Google it.

I once set a piece of homework for my second-years that had them converting money into foreign currency. Simple stuff. One of the questions was about a family going to Brussels and changing £550 the local currency. Half the class didn't do the question as they didn't know where Brussels was. This is despite a good chunk of them using their phones as calculators - not one of the folk who didn't do the question had thought to Google "where is Brussels". They have no research skills whatsoever.

[pandarilla]

The problem is that many kids don't even know they can whip out an Android and Google it.

I once set a piece of homework for my second-years that had them converting money into foreign currency. Simple stuff. One of the questions was about a family going to Brussels and changing £550 the local currency. Half the class didn't do the question as they didn't know where Brussels was. This is despite a good chunk of them using their phones as calculators - not one of the folk who didn't do the question had thought to Google "where is Brussels". They have no research skills whatsoever.

Yep.

Even with this incredible resource at their fingertips too many kids are so lethargic that they don't bother to use it.

Many of those that do have drive lack the research skills, but this is being taught and they'll improve.

I'm coming across as a negative old b*****d here and I can assure you I'm not. But there are times when the dumbing down in our education system (and society at large) is so obvious.

I'd also like to add that there's very little schools or teachers can do about these problems. They are societal, and show no signs of abating.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

I'm guilty myself with the anecdotal examples from my school but this really is one of the most factless and stupid threads P&B has ever seen

Education's amazing these days, education is shite these days and young people all can't deduct 12p from change, schools inflate grades to please parents, young folk are lazy, everyone who fails is from a single parent family.

And not a shred of credible, reliable information to be found

[Crùbag]

I'm guilty myself with the anecdotal examples from my school but this really is one of the most factless and stupid threads P&B has ever seen

Education's amazing these days, education is shite these days and young people all can't deduct 12p from change, schools inflate grades to please parents, young folk are lazy, everyone who fails is from a single parent family.

And not a shred of credible, reliable information to be found

It's bascially a re-run of the newspaper letters' pages from 20, 30 and 40 years ago... 'it's all getting worse', 'the youth of today can't do X', 'how will they cope with the future..'?

Times change, people change and adapt.

Books were once unecessary for most humans too. Many native cultures - including our own Gaelic traditions - revolved around the oral tradition and memory. When the School of Scottish Studies at Edin Uni recorded Gaelic speakers in various parts of Scotland in the 50s - some could recite hundreds of poems and songs despite being... 'illiterate peasants'.

It's ironic that some are decrying the convenience of modern technology but communicating their grievances on an internet forum. Why not get your pals and family together and chew the fat around a peat fire in an auld black house?

[The Moonster]

And how do you know this doesn't already happen?

Quick summary:

1. I Know no parents who use school as a child minder.

2. I have 3 weans at big school. They are all well-educated and inspired.

All you're doing is regurgitating Daily Mail dross but without the pics.

I've never read the Daily Mail so that would be a startling coincidence.

Is your first statement actually making any sort of point at all? I don't know anyone who is a member of ISIS but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Not once have I said that people can't be well educated and inspired at school here, merely pointing out that we can educate them even better and inspire them even more using a better education system. I believe if we were to move to a different (better, whichever word you prefer) schooling system you'd have outrage from parents who would need to change their routine, as I've seen recently.

I don't disagree that it would be better. It just plainly isn't workable.

Why isn't teacher continuity workable?

[harry94]

I think the Finnish system should be followed. It's a different approach but in my opinion a much more human approach to teaching.

You don't have to start school until you are 7 (I think this might be being lowered to 6 soon).

No mandatory testing, you only sit one test when you are finishing school.

You have the same teacher for your first 5 years of school, allowing the teacher to get to know the pupils and the pupils to trust the teacher.

Classes will work for 45 minutes and have a 10 minute break for every hour they're in school (some schools only open for 5 hours a day)

Your first years at school are spent doing creative things like drawing, painting, playing music, playing sports etc.

Teachers are chosen from the top 30% of graduates I believe, they're treated the same as doctors/surgeons etc.

The results speak for themselves. Sadly, having seen first hand the outrage in West Dunbartonshire when they announced they'd be shortening the school day by half an hour, nobody here actually wants any sort of radical change, or gives two fucks about what the kids are learning - as long as the school can look after their kids for what they deem a normal school day then they're happy. So much "dis ruins my hole ruteen, hw am a suposed tae take ma kidz tae skool haff a 'oor latr?!11!" being spouted.

I've actually taken the view that we won't ever radically change this country. Too many selfish c***s who are blind to the bigger picture.

It's a great idea and there are elements of the Finnish model being adapted in Scotland. I finished school a few years ago and don't ever remember being asked to do anything too dissimilar to what you have suggested there. I remember a few tests but it was never suggested that they were life defining.

The problem is though, a lot of the success they have is probably down to a much different society (not that we can't go about changing that). People view teaching as an important profession and parents are loud (which when combined with being excessively stupid, is a dangerous combination).

Think it's pretty difficult to implement proper change as people aren't patient enough and it's hard to see tangible results in a short period of time. Being Education Minister is a poisoned chalice.

[strichener]

Why isn't teacher continuity workable?

Exactly.

[The Moonster]

It's a great idea and there are elements of the Finnish model being adapted in Scotland. I finished school a few years ago and don't ever remember being asked to do anything too dissimilar to what you have suggested there. I remember a few tests but it was never suggested that they were life defining.

The problem is though, a lot of the success they have is probably down to a much different society (not that we can't go about changing that). People view teaching as an important profession and parents are loud (which when combined with being excessively stupid, is a dangerous combination).

Think it's pretty difficult to implement proper change as people aren't patient enough and it's hard to see tangible results in a short period of time. Being Education Minister is a poisoned chalice.

People still have to take tests every year and their progress is based on whether they pass that test. You can voluntarily take tests in Finland if you want to find out how you are doing but grades aren't kept or published. It takes a lot of pressure off of students I think, whereas here people NEED to pass modules throughout the year or they'll fail. Agree 100% with your other points.

EDIT - We should also note (with regards to your point of society) that in the 70s Finlands society was very different to what it is now and a lot of them would argue that the change in their education system has caused this change in attitudes over the last 30 years. Patience and perseverance is the key as you say.

[Tom McB]

Can we assume from the refusal to provide evidence, that the single mums thing was utter, utter shite?

Anecdotally speaking, I've never noticed any correlation between people's folks being together and educational attainment. For one, my maw managed to get both her kids through Uni, as well as graduating herself as a mature student when we we were in Primary School. Not bad for one of those wretched single mum types.

Going from the particular to the general? As foolish as going from the general to the particular.

Walloper found.

IN general children from single parent households have lower educational attainment.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/household-income/intergenerational-transmission-of-poverty-in-the-uk---eu/2014/sty-causes-of-poverty-uk.html

In the UK, there is also a relationship between educational outcomes and the number of adults and children living in the household, the employment status of the parents and the childhood household’s financial situation. For example, holding all else equal, the odds of a low educational outcome are over one and a half times higher for those who grew up in a single adult household compared to households with two adults.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

.....which doesn't even sligthly prove that:

Most of the "hopeless" kids you describe tend to brought up by single mums.

Which is what was being discussed.

Walloper.

[sparky88]

Is single mums shorthand for single parents?

[Gaz]

Why isn't teacher continuity workable?

Exactly.

Let's flip it on its head for a second.

How would you make it workable?

In order to have continuity each academic year, you would have to either:

a) give teachers fixed-term contracts

or

b) put a clause into teachers' contracts stating that their notice period is the end of the academic year.

If it's the former, then you'd better be prepared for a mass exodus of teachers. As with any employment, no workforce is going to settle for job security being replaced by a series of temporary contracts. Not unless there's a significant financial incentive. Are you willing to pay for that?

If it's the latter, what do you do when a teacher wants to leave in, say, October? Make them work for another eight months? How do you think a teachers' performance is going to be forced to work eight months in a job they want to leave? One thing's for sure, no-one, regardless of their profession, would be giving a rat's arse about their performance, and it's the kids who will suffer.

What about teachers who reach retirement age? Are you going to force them to stay on?

What about those who want to leave due to ill health or injury? To be a carer? To have children? Are you going to force them to stay on, or regulate when they are allowed to have children?

Completely unworkable. I don't deny that continuity would be better for the pupil, but there's no way it'd work.

[strichener]

Let's flip it on its head for a second.

How would you make it workable?

In order to have continuity each academic year, you would have to either:

a) give teachers fixed-term contracts

or

b) put a clause into teachers' contracts stating that their notice period is the end of the academic year.

If it's the former, then you'd better be prepared for a mass exodus of teachers. As with any employment, no workforce is going to settle for job security being replaced by a series of temporary contracts. Not unless there's a significant financial incentive. Are you willing to pay for that?

If it's the latter, what do you do when a teacher wants to leave in, say, October? Make them work for another eight months? How do you think a teachers' performance is going to be forced to work eight months in a job they want to leave? One thing's for sure, no-one, regardless of their profession, would be giving a rat's arse about their performance, and it's the kids who will suffer.

What about teachers who reach retirement age? Are you going to force them to stay on?

What about those who want to leave due to ill health or injury? To be a carer? To have children? Are you going to force them to stay on, or regulate when they are allowed to have children?

Completely unworkable. I don't deny that continuity would be better for the pupil, but there's no way it'd work.

So what you are admitting was the point that I was making - teacher's primary concern is not the education of children. At least be honest about it.

[Gaz]

So what you are admitting was the point that I was making - teacher's primary concern is not the education of children. At least be honest about it.

Er, what?

[strichener]

Er, what?

What part are you failing to understand? Your post show that clearly it is un-workable because teachers would not accept it, even though you agree that it would be beneficial to the pupils.

I have a six month notice period in my job. If I decide to leave (or are asked to leave), I will work my six months notice as perform my job as dilligently and professionally as I do at the moment. It is down to professionalism and pride in your work. Are teacher's different?

[Gaz]

What part are you failing to understand?

I have a six month notice period in my job. If I decide to leave (or are asked to leave), I will work my six months notice as perform my job as dilligently and professionally as I do at the moment. It is down to professionalism and pride in your work. Are teacher's different?

Will each and every one of your colleagues perform as diligently and professionally as they do at the moment on their six-month notice period?

[JMDP]

This lad strichener isn't the brightest.

[The Moonster]

Fair enough Gaz, I'd need to look into it more and see how Finland deal with those issues. It clearly works there though.

[strichener]

Will each and every one of your colleagues perform as diligently and professionally as they do at the moment on their six-month notice period?

I would hope so or otherwise they would be terminated early for poor performance. Just out of curiosity, is this even an option for teachers? How long does the average disiplinary process take?

This lad strichener isn't the brightest.

Well I for one am completely enthralled by your contribution to this discussion. Please continue.