The Summer football debate

[HibeeJibee]

It takes 39/40 weeks to play our whole season, so let's assume we are doing it from the first weekend in March until the last one in November. You're taking out months which have an average high temperature of 3-5 degrees and replacing them with months which have 16-19 degrees average highs. I think you'd see a different result to the Irish crowd level as football is such a key sport here for us. I'd expect an increase in the region of 10% over the course of the season.

The only problem I forsee is pitch quality. It's near impossible to grow or repair your pitches during the winter, so you'd look at getting those cool as f**k heating lamps. After purchase you look at around £65K annually to use them. Not too bad of an expense if you can get the crowd increase to be substantial enough. Plus it'd likely allow you to shorten the season length as you could keep the pitches good enough to play midweeks too. Probably taking out another month of the season - making it mid-March to mid November. Euro and WC years you could revert to the extra month schedule.

It doesn't work like that, as shown in my example above... there are too many CL/EL dates (when domestic top tier competitions aren't allowed to be scheduled), international breaks and finals tournaments. Every 2nd year there's a WC or Euros, and now in the other years there's an international break in June too. Plus the Confederations Cup (summer before WC), and UEFA Nations League Finals tournament (summer before Euros from 2019), albeit the chances of Scotland qualifying are low and fewer SPFL players participate.

Somewhere like Norway only play 30 league games and 1 cup (without replays). Somewhere like Eire is at such a low level they can play through international breaks, WCs and Euros as none of their players are involved. We don't compare to either set-up.

If we adopted summer football we'd have to play from mid-January to mid-December. Exactly how far into each would depend on certain choices and which year in the 4-year cycle it was.

[theProdigy]

It doesn't work like that, as shown in my example above... there are too many CL/EL dates (when domestic top tier competitions aren't allowed to be scheduled), international breaks and finals tournaments. Every 2nd year there's a WC or Euros, and now in the other years there's an international break in June too. Plus the Confederations Cup (summer before WC), and UEFA Nations League Finals tournament (summer before Euros from 2019), albeit the chances of Scotland qualifying are low and fewer SPFL players participate.

Somewhere like Norway only play 30 league games and 1 cup (without replays). Somewhere like Eire is at such a low level they can play through international breaks, WCs and Euros as none of their players are involved. We don't compare to either set-up.

If we adopted summer football we'd have to play from mid-January to mid-December. Exactly how far into each would depend on certain choices and which year in the 4-year cycle it was.

If we were to go for summer football (which is a waste of time imo), we would need to make it so that each team plays each other 2 times and no split - maybe make all the league 14 teams!! Problem being when you get to the point of having World Cups and Euros to play through the summer though!! Another problem is when we get teams into the knockout stage of the CL or EL they won't have played in ages and it will mean they have no chance of going through (compared to the small chance they currently have)!!

Waste of time going to summer football as the only gains would be a few extra fans (5% at most I'd reckon) and therefore a few quid extra...

[DensParkNumber1]

Summer football is shite, no thanks. Ill keep the boxing day, new years day matches over playing matches while im away on holiday

Seriously thought a 10% increase? you're having a laugh. If anything it'd be similar but with a good amount of people being on there fortnight holidays with kids etc.

Has summer football ever worked in any country? I cant think of one

[invergowrie arab]

All for summer fitba tbh, there was a good quote recently from an interview with Alan Burrows where he said something along the lines of "Imagine you were starting the sport again from scratch, when would you choose to play it?", in my opinion that would be over summer.

Edit: Here's the article http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/state-of-scottish-football-part-iii.119928972

The actual quote is "Put it this way. If you were starting football as a new sport now, when would you play it? Naturally, it would be through the summer."

You would also have it played by topless birds on their early 20s.

[7-2]

The actual quote is "Put it this way. If you were starting football as a new sport now, when would you play it? Naturally, it would be through the summer."

Why?

[realmadrid]

Seriously thought a 10% increase? you're having a laugh. If anything it'd be similar but with a good amount of people being on there fortnight holidays with kids etc.

The holiday argument is invalid anyway as it's not the 1970's. People take holidays in every month of the year so it currently effects crowds and we don't charge the dates of the season for this.

You only have to look at Rugby League who have a summer season which starts in February and ends in early October and that's without being constrained by UEFA and their "only show in town" rules.

[realmadrid]

With regard to the schedule posted above does it not miss a trick in that if teams can play Saturday then Tuesday why not schedule games (In a summer or winter season) in July and August on a Friday night, Monday night basis with those in Europe given a Sunday game from the Friday round of fixtures. The second game could then be slotted in later in the season (works better in a winter season as you then have the whole season to slot in these postponed games when the teams are out of Europe.

I have been told by two separate sources (One who works in TV and one a director of a SPFL team) that Sky are prepared to pay more for Scottish football but its conditional on us giving them summer football (Not all summer) but some football during the period from the start of July to mid August (ie when there is no Premiership) and not just on a Saturday but potentially 4 nights a week outside of the UEFA dates so football on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday.

Am I correct in saying that fixtures just cannot be scheduled on the Tuesday. Wednesday and Thursday of UEFA weeks or is there a wider restriction.

Remember that from the season after next under the latest UEFA changes we will have 2 teams playing in the first round of the Euorpa league qualifying, with the first round ties being played before the final of Euro 2016

[HibeeJibee]

I'm sure you are right that rounds could be scheduled on Friday and Monday evenings, to replicate the affect of playing weekends and midweeks while not breaking UEFA rules - but is that not a slap in the face to fans? To potentially play a month of the season without Saturdays or Sundays, except for games moved there due to European commitments, would not go down well.

Also it could become a total nightmare in terms of disruption. Our clubs in Europe (up to 4 at any 1 time) could only play 1 game each weekend, due to playing CL/EL ties on Tue/Wed/Thu through the week, so you would potentially have lots of Friday and/or Monday games getting postponed and needing rescheduled (when?) - owing to other games getting moved onto Saturday and Sundays. Plus all at short notice as PR1 > PR3 are back-to-back, PR4 following after 1 week's gap.

Must say I'm in favour of starting our season in July, although not the start of July, and some could be moved to Fridays or Mondays for TV as now.

[stumigoo]

Summer football isn't for me, what really needs to happen is quality investment in pitches and facilities. Hybrid and 4G surfaces can still be victims of hard frost (depending on the heating systems installed) but they provide year round, high quality playable surfaces that can also get clubs additional income after the initial outlay of cash. The state of some of our professional pitches is an embarrassment, with this year's number one culprit being Tannadice. I know not may support the use of artificial or hybrid pitches but for me it is something I would want to see in Scottish football more and more.

[realmadrid]

I'm sure you are right that rounds could be scheduled on Friday and Monday evenings, to replicate the affect of playing weekends and midweeks while not breaking UEFA rules - but is that not a slap in the face to fans? To potentially play a month of the season without Saturdays or Sundays, except for games moved there due to European commitments, would not go down well.

Also it could become a total nightmare in terms of disruption. Our clubs in Europe (up to 4 at any 1 time) could only play 1 game each weekend, due to playing CL/EL ties on Tue/Wed/Thu through the week, so you would potentially have lots of Friday and/or Monday games getting postponed and needing rescheduled (when?) - owing to other games getting moved onto Saturday and Sundays. Plus all at short notice as PR1 > PR3 are back-to-back, PR4 following after 1 week's gap.

Must say I'm in favour of starting our season in July, although not the start of July, and some could be moved to Fridays or Mondays for TV as now.

I appreciate the non Saturday idea would not go down well with everyone but these extra early games could replace midweek games in November and January and also allow those who claim they do other things on Saturdays in the summer to continue to do so.

I'm not in favour of a summer season but with a winter season starting early July. At point of issuing the fixtures we would know the 4 teams in Europe so with creative planning those in Europe are issued 1 fixture (possibly against each other) and the others are issued 2. In some weeks you may only get 2 Friday and Monday games if the 4 European teams are not playing each other.

As to when the missing fixtures would be played, they would have to use the existing mid week dates in November January etc to catch up

It could also help mix the league up a bit at the start as the non European teams would have a chance to put points on the board through back to back summer games.

A bit of thinking out of the box is needed to keep the winter season and the benefits of New Year games as well as supporting all our teams in Europe.

[realmadrid]

Summer football isn't for me, what really needs to happen is quality investment in pitches and facilities. Hybrid and 4G surfaces can still be victims of hard frost (depending on the heating systems installed) but they provide year round, high quality playable surfaces that can also get clubs additional income after the initial outlay of cash. The state of some of our professional pitches is an embarrassment, with this year's number one culprit being Tannadice. I know not may support the use of artificial or hybrid pitches but for me it is something I would want to see in Scottish football more and more.

As these surfaces need to be put on a flat surface grounds like Tannadice would need a major adjustment to the pitch and stands to make this work. Motherwell are the other team where this would cause issues.

[rory90]

I like going to games in the winter as it gives me something to do, plus when it's sunny the sun gets in my eyes and I can't see anything.

Shove summer football up yer arse.

[craigkillie]

I put together a 2016 calendar with FIFA and UEFA dates highlighted - feel free to download it and fill in your own potential fixture list.

2016 Calendar

[realmadrid]

I did not realise that European 1st round ties are starting even earlier next year. It's possible a player from say Aberdeen could play in Euro 2016 and his club side could be back in action before he's home from the competition. Looks like summer football has already arrived via the back door.

[HibeeJibee]

I put together a 2016 calendar with FIFA and UEFA dates highlighted - feel free to download it and fill in your own potential fixture list.

2016 Calendar

Good wee thing that - rather more professional version than my effort on p1 !!

Note however that Euro 2016 release will probably start Monday 23rd May with exemption for CL finalists, this has been previous practice IIRC? Otherwise is only 10 days to the opening matches. Also Tue 9th Aug is UEFA date (Supercup) although obviously you can still play the Wednesday.

And it wouldn't be normal for: Scottish Cup (SF & F double up with Prem weekend)? Happens in League Cup but not Scottish Cup.

[craigkillie]

I did not realise that European 1st round ties are starting even earlier next year. It's possible a player from say Aberdeen could play in Euro 2016 and his club side could be back in action before he's home from the competition. Looks like summer football has already arrived via the back door.

Sorry, meant to point out that the asterisked dates were a guess - these haven't been confirmed by UEFA. It seems to me like the only way they could really fit everything in (together with the week's break between QR3 and play-off) before the international break.

Good wee thing that - rather more professional version than my effort on p1 !!

Note however that Euro 2016 release will probably start Monday 23rd May with exemption for CL finalists, this has been previous practice IIRC? Otherwise is only 10 days to the opening matches. Also Tue 9th Aug is UEFA date (Supercup) although obviously you can still play the Wednesday.

And it wouldn't be normal for: Scottish Cup (SF & F double up with Prem weekend)? Happens in League Cup but not Scottish Cup.

I knew I'd forgotten something - will edit the Supercup in. Couldn't find enough information about UEFA release dates, so you might be right about that.

Doubling the Scottish Cup semis and finals with league games isn't done just now, but it's certainly a possible way to squeeze extra matches in (would also allow you to "game" the UEFA system by playing re-arranged matches on their dates).

[Wilky1878]

I'm split on summer football if I'm being honest. I hate games in the winter especially midweek or Friday night but I think I would like a midweek or Friday night in the summer. Obviously internationals and the likes bring in their own problems but some countries already do that Mike Mulraney done an interview and he said something along the lines of if their was a midweek game on a summers night someone will go along however on a rainy winter night they might go but they sure as hell wont take their young kid. He also mentioned sky would be willing to pay more for more games throughout the summer. It could come good but it could come bad. Personally I think it would come good if they had the fixtures right around internationals etc...

[HibeeJibee]

Doubling the Scottish Cup semis and finals with league games isn't done just now, but it's certainly a possible way to squeeze extra matches in (would also allow you to "game" the UEFA system by playing re-arranged matches on their dates).

For SFs maybe. At they moment they evidently drop the Scottish Cup SFs in between MD #33 / #34 in order to give more time for clubs and fans to make post-split arrangements... Unless you were stopping playing the Final as the season finale you couldn't double it up with league, though.

I'm split on summer football if I'm being honest. I hate games in the winter especially midweek or Friday night but I think I would like a midweek or Friday night in the summer. Obviously internationals and the likes bring in their own problems but some countries already do that Mike Mulraney done an interview and he said something along the lines of if their was a midweek game on a summers night someone will go along however on a rainy winter night they might go but they sure as hell wont take their young kid. He also mentioned sky would be willing to pay more for more games throughout the summer. It could come good but it could come bad. Personally I think it would come good if they had the fixtures right around internationals etc...

I think it depends what we're talking about, too? There is a difference between "summer football" (playing March-November although as we have seen it would actually be January-December!) which has an awful lot of difficulties and pitfalls... and "playing some more football in the summer", which would actually be "playing more football in July". Sounds like they're already looking at the latter with an idea for extra League Cup games, although they seem fairly unappealing to me.

I don't see how it would ever make sense for us to move to a model which involved starting and ending the season in the wintertime (imagine it - flag raising, league climax, Scottish Cup Final etc. in January and December!!). Or going up against Euros and World Cups when fans will be distracted and players will be away, more so now Euros has gone up to 24 clubs. There are also practical points - like moving out-of-kilter with the UEFA / FIFA season and the usual periods of transfer activity, maintenance of pitches, loss of Boxing Day and New Year games, and so on. Few countries do this and the trend has been away from it.

However it is a different proposition to say we might start earlier in July, and break for a couple of weeks in January. That seems more helpful, and less difficult, and a lot of countries already do this effectively.

[Wilky1878]

For SFs maybe. At they moment they evidently drop the Scottish Cup SFs in between MD #33 / #34 in order to give more time for clubs and fans to make post-split arrangements... Unless you were stopping playing the Final as the season finale you couldn't double it up with league, though.

I think it depends what we're talking about, too? There is a difference between "summer football" (playing March-November although as we have seen it would actually be January-December!) which has an awful lot of difficulties and pitfalls... and "playing some more football in the summer", which would actually be "playing more football in July". Sounds like they're already looking at the latter with an idea for extra League Cup games, although they seem fairly unappealing to me.

I don't see how it would ever make sense for us to move to a model which involved starting and ending the season in the wintertime (imagine it - flag raising, league climax, Scottish Cup Final etc. in January and December!!). Or going up against Euros and World Cups when fans will be distracted and players will be away, more so now Euros has gone up to 24 clubs. There are also practical points - like moving out-of-kilter with the UEFA / FIFA season and the usual periods of transfer activity, maintenance of pitches, loss of Boxing Day and New Year games, and so on. Few countries do this and the trend has been away from it.

However it is a different proposition to say we might start earlier in July, and break for a couple of weeks in January. That seems more helpful, and less difficult, and a lot of countries already do this effectively.

Surely we could have a break that falls in with January and then the January window is like the summer window now. The rest of the points are good however and I am probably now sitting at 50/50 split instead of the 60/40 split I was in favour of summer football.

[HibeeJibee]

Yes... but our "closed season" (little of it there would be) and "mid-season" being the reverse of most of the rest of Europe would still be difficult - given the vast majority of player movements are with England and the continent.

Also, separately, clubs would qualify for Europe in December then not start-out on their campaigns for another 7/8 months!! Bit odd.

Plus CL/EL groupstage climaxes, WC/Euro playoffs, etc. would fall at the long season's end which might hamper performance. Any club qualifying for CL/EL knockouts would actually be into a new season by the time they came along.

Of course there is also the question of the transition - 6 month season? 18 month season?

And crowds. Summer football in Eire hasn't boosted crowds despite rugby union/GAA community to tap.