When did you give up on Labour?

[strichener]

Except they're clearly not.

Only morons come out with this pish, usually because they don't have the intelligence to differentiate between the real devious fuckers and those trying to improve things.

Correct. Everyone that enters politics does it because they want to improve things. Some want to improve it for everyone, most want the improvement for themselves over all else.

[AUFC90]

I hate to burst your bubble here geezer, but they are. All major politicians poll-watch and pick policies from expediency, based on their popularity rather than on their practicality; they all make promises that they know they can't keep; they all blow the same rich old geezers for funding and they all court the same infernal media tycoons for support. The SNP do it just as enthusiastically as the UK parties do, I'm afraid.

Seriously, some politicians are better than others - a lot better, in some cases - but they're all politicians nonetheless. I know that you think your politicians are different but equally, there's no telling Bieber fans that their favourite pop star is a tit either.

The SNP have kept to more manifesto promises than any of the rest. Their expenses record is much better. Their record in government is much better. They have better leaders and on and on.

Of course they are politicians but at least they're not all Oxbridge robots who don't have a single clue what normal life is like. Westminster is a stinking pile of shit and corrupt to the core.

Jim Murphy has claimed 400k in the last 2 years.

Nicola Sturgeon gives half her wage to charity.

Not the same. .

[Urban Gorilla]

Well Sturgeon now wants Cameron in number 10. Excuse me if I don't join the anti-labour hordes. Disgraceful. Hope you are all happy your leader is plotting for another Tory government. Vote SNP get Tory is right enough eh folks?

Lol that was funny.

[pandarilla]

I hate to burst your bubble here geezer, but they are. All major politicians poll-watch and pick policies from expediency, based on their popularity rather than on their practicality; they all make promises that they know they can't keep; they all blow the same rich old geezers for funding and they all court the same infernal media tycoons for support. The SNP do it just as enthusiastically as the UK parties do, I'm afraid.

Seriously, some politicians are better than others - a lot better, in some cases - but they're all politicians nonetheless. I know that you think your politicians are different but equally, there's no telling Bieber fans that their favourite pop star is a tit either.

Your first and second paragraph contradict themselves....geezer.

There is a huge difference in the quality of politicians. You've agreed with me, they are by definition therefore not all the same.

Opportunistic? Definitely, and salmond is as much as the next one. But do you seriously doubt there is a string social democratic principle to sturgeon and salmond? They will hold their nose and court money and influence at times because politics is politics. But their aim is to build a social democratic society. They realised very early that this could only be done through independence.

The difference between the quality of msp and mp generally is quite stark. The tories up here are even fairly respectable (as are the Lib Dems for the most part). Scottish labour just got too comfortable and the gravy train was in full swing for too long.

[FuzzyAffro]

Well, just on the claims above:

- Opportunism: The SNP used to be well to the right of Labour but spotted a gap in the market when Labour jumped rightward, so now they're left-wing, by UK standards.

This is a very well-documented political/marketing strategy that was conceived by the former FM, to much success, but you can bet your mortgage on the fact that, had environmentalism or yogic flying been a more popular choice, the SNP would be pushing independence while eating mung beans, chanting in Tibetan and hugging trees.

And this isn't a problem, really - the Lib Dems tried exactly the same thing and succeeded, and that's why they're now in the Coalition. All politicians pitch their manifestoes at maximum popularity, if they have any brains.

The point here is that the SNP's supposed socialism is basically like Tesco points for their real goal, which is independence. If the socialism gets in the way of the nationalism, the socialism will get dropped like a shitty stick. Because they're politicians with a specific goal in mind, see?

- Promises they can't keep: To pick one of many - you're still paying council tax, despite loud promises to change it.

- Blowing rich old geezers for money: Soutar, to pick one example. All politicians do this kind of thing, if they want to win.

- Courting infernal media tycoons for support: Richard Desmond and Rupert Murdoch, just in the last ten years.

All of which is fine - it's just what politicians do, what they have to do in fact.

And if you think this doesn't apply to the SNP, you probably also believe that Coke Is It and that Pepsi is The Choice Of a New Generation.

I don't know where to start with this pile of utter shite. But will first point out I never once agreed with your definition of what constitutes being the same as the rest in the first place, which you have now built a house of fail on.

The SNP were never well to the right of Labour. Tartan Tories is a lazy Labour smear against the SNP after 79, despite more than three times as many Labour MP's voting out Callaghan as SNP MP's. The SNP have always been broadly centrist with a social democratic outlook. Google it, even if they weren't, the founding principle upon which they were formed is independence for Scotland, which I believe they're still pretty keen on.

All parties court the press and exist on donations, you framed that as being the same as anyone else not me. We mean not spineless, valueless shitebags who just lust after power, you frame it as needing the press and donations. All parties need that.

The rest I won't dignify with a reply, facile Labour zombie shite from a simpleton who can't handle his party's coming obliteration.

You might as well have said all politicians brush their teeth, SNP politicians brush their teeth too, therefore they are all the same. Farcical shite.

[Jamaldo]

I never get tired of the old, "they're all the same" argument used to support sticking with a corrupt political system. How self-loathing can you get?

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Wait, the most popular political party of the time abandoned the position that actually made them so dominant in Scotland and the Scottish National Party filled the gap?

Well good. Obviously.

[flyingrodent]

The SNP have kept to more manifesto promises than any of the rest. Their expenses record is much better. Their record in government is much better. They have better leaders and on and on.

Of course they are politicians but at least they're not all Oxbridge robots who don't have a single clue what normal life is like. Westminster is a stinking pile of shit and corrupt to the core.

Jim Murphy has claimed 400k in the last 2 years.

Nicola Sturgeon gives half her wage to charity.

Not the same. .

Yes, look, Nicola Sturgeon gets paid more than David Cameron does. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/18/scottish-parliament-votes-pay-rise-msps-nicola-sturgeon Half of that salary - £144,687 - is still over £72,000 per year.

Can I suggest to you that perhaps Nicola's charity donation, admirable as it is, is at least partially a public relations exercise? That is, is it possible that it's done so that people on forums like this can get up on their high horse and be all like, "Nicola Sturgeon gives half her wage to charity unlike that shit Jim Murphy" etc?

I'd say that it's worth considering.

[flyingrodent]

Wait, the most popular political party of the time abandoned the position that actually made them so dominant in Scotland and the Scottish National Party filled the gap?

Well good. Obviously.

It's one of the all-time clown shoes acts of political stupidity by Labour, I think.

[pandarilla]

Yes, look, Nicola Sturgeon gets paid more than David Cameron does. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/18/scottish-parliament-votes-pay-rise-msps-nicola-sturgeon Half of that salary - £144,687 - is still over £72,000 per year.

Can I suggest to you that perhaps Nicola's charity donation, admirable as it is, is at least partially a public relations exercise? That is, is it possible that it's done so that people on forums like this can get up on their high horse and be all like, "Nicola Sturgeon gives half her wage to charity unlike that shit Jim Murphy" etc?

I'd say that it's worth considering.

It's not something that is mentioned a lot, I certainly didn't realise it.

Yes there is a pr benefit. But is there a drawback? At all?

You seem a little obsessed.

[FuzzyAffro]

I never get tired of the old, "they're all the same" argument used to support sticking with a corrupt political system. How self-loathing can you get?

Its unbelievable. Scottish unionists really do have a mental illness, psychologists should study them. Also, if they're all the same, what would it matter if we changed then? Why not? If they're all the same anyway what difference does it make, but they say that to take the wind out the sails of those who want change.

Its very similar to the coincidental anti-nationalists that pollute the Scottish independence debate, just citizen of the world man types. Embarrassing.

[flyingrodent]

The SNP were never well to the right of Labour. Tartan Tories is a lazy Labour smear against the SNP after 79, despite more than three times as many Labour MP's voting out Callaghan as SNP MP's. The SNP have always been broadly centrist with a social democratic outlook.

Social democratic parties are and always have been well to the right of socialist parties, all over Europe. And so the SNP, as a social democratic party, were once well to the right of Labour, who were once socialists. Case closed.

I mean, I suppose you could make a case that the SNP have suddenly discovered that they were always really socialists, but it is mighty convenient that they've lurched leftward just as Labour went zooming past them to Toryland.

And again, that's fine - there's nothing wrong with the Nats taking Labour's place on the left, if Labour don't want it. I think a lot of SNP policy has been correct on that score.

But again, this is clearly a political calculation aimed at generating maximal support for independence, and not any kind of left wing principle. I'm telling you that the SNP are politicians and that they act just like all other politicians do and you won't accept it, for some reason.

I understand that you don't like the message but seriously, just because you think One Direction aren't like all the other boy-bands; that doesn't mean that it's true.

[FuzzyAffro]

Nobody has ever said the SNP are socialists. You need to see a doctor. Have you heard of a straw-man argument?

The SNP have always been centrist social democrats and still are, the rest you are making up.

As for Labour they used to be left-wing now they're centre-right. They have moved, the SNP haven't. Give it up Jim nobody's going to vote for you in May.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

The mode position of handwringing right-wing morons is that anyone who claims to want to see poverty reduced has to live in a cardboard box themself.

The salary donation is more firefighting against "look look she's not even poor, champagne socialist hypocrite!!!!!!" than proactive positive PR.

[FuzzyAffro]

What I really want to know though is how much did her coffee machine cost?

[flyingrodent]

It's not something that is mentioned a lot, I certainly didn't realise it.

Yes there is a pr benefit. But is there a drawback? At all?

You seem a little obsessed.

I didn't know about it myself and wouldn't have done, if it hadn't been pointed out to me as an example of how Nicola Sturgeon is supposedly radically different to politicians from other parties.

But seriously - she's been fighting elections for twenty years and has been in power for eight years, for God's sake. I actually quite like her but it's surely not controversial to suggest that Nicola Sturgeon, a professional politician and First Minister of Scotland, is a politician who calculates how to behave to maximise her political gain, just like they all do.

[John Lambies Doos]

Vote SNP get Lib Dems

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

VoteSNPgetWhiteAndGoldDress.

[Jamaldo]

The mode position of handwringing right-wing morons is that anyone who claims to want to see poverty reduced has to live in a cardboard box themself.

The salary donation is more firefighting against "look look she's not even poor, champagne socialist hypocrite!!!!!!" than proactive positive PR.

Yeah but she has a coffee machine. You're not allowed to have a coffee machine if you're a politician m8.

[FuzzyAffro]

I didn't know about it myself and wouldn't have done, if it hadn't been pointed out to me as an example of how Nicola Sturgeon is supposedly radically different to politicians from other parties.

But seriously - she's been fighting elections for twenty years and has been in power for eight years, for God's sake. I actually quite like her but it's surely not controversial to suggest that Nicola Sturgeon, a professional politician and First Minister of Scotland, is a politician who calculates how to behave to maximise her political gain, just like they all do.

Of course she fucking does why wouldn't she? That's not what is meant by saying they're not the same as WM politicians.