Gibby82 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Rumours on Twitter that Ciftci's rejected the Wigan move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banana Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 It's not all doom and gloom... I'm not sure it's even mostly doom and gloom. Next season might well be a year of the considerable number of young guys maturing and then kicking on in the following season. If that's the scenario then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peeeel Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I think it's trite to say that we should have replaced GMS and Armstrong and we'd have been fine. Ready-made replacements don't grow on trees and a judgement has to be made whether what is available in the market is (a) affordable and (b) better than what we already have. We'll rarely be able to sign quality established players and so the choice is whether to sign promising youngsters or second rate senior pros. We don't need to sign the former (because we have plenty already) and dabbled with the latter (to no real benefit). You may very well think that it's trite. We knew Gary was leaving the club this time last season, therefore we had about 6 months to identify his replacement. Stuart I agree was a lot harder to replace giving the time of season and the availability of players, but there was a taylor-made replacement and we made a futile attempt to sign him. Fyvie was available on a free, had we brought him in then Telfer could have been pushed further up the park. That's two ideal replacements at one club a division below us in our own country. If anything the second part of your post is trite, actually probably more of a sweeping generalization. About half the leagues in the world finish in the winter, therefore, clubs from these leagues (The Scandanavian countries and Eastern European countries where we've had a lot of success signing players) will be releasing players from their contracts/negotiating departures of players under-contract that are deemed surplus to requirements, to assume there is only two types of players available to the club shows naivety on your part. Look at Fojut for example, a ready-made replacement who wasn't held in high regard at his club but proved to be an important player for us, there are plenty more players of this mold and the club can afford them, he imo was neither a youngster or second-rate senior. McGowan is another example and he was signed in Janurary, there are plenty players out there who have more than enough quality to play for us, it's all about knowing the market, something Levein carried out to perfection at the club and continues to do so at Hearts. Even the reasons giving to support your argument are a total fallacy. Because we have young players at the club we shouldn't sign more... Had we brought in a fairly talented youngster or two they would now have six months of game time under their belt, furthermore none of the youngsters at the club who could replace Gary or Stuart were out and out replacements, as in none were of a similar mold. We don't/didn't have a natural winger at the club and we prefer to play with two wingers under the current manager. f**k we could have even utilized the loan market, another thing Levein was happy to do when times called for it. And yeah, we can all agree we shouldn't be signing second-rate seniors, however it's far from the only players available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peeeel Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'm not sure it's even mostly doom and gloom. Next season might well be a year of the considerable number of young guys maturing and then kicking on in the following season. If that's the scenario then so be it. Hopefully however, I'd prefer we didn't just write of another twelve months, especially giving the split within the fan base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peeeel Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Just had a text, Wigan deal dead, Ciftci to Ajax. My reply... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banana Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Hopefully however, I'd prefer we didn't just write of another twelve months, especially giving the split within the fan base. The section of the support meltdown would be the trade off. A bit of bottom 6 perspective might be a good thing tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 BBC Gossip and The Sun have United and Wigan agreeing a £1 million fee for Ciftci. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pull My Strings Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 You may very well think that it's trite. We knew Gary was leaving the club this time last season, therefore we had about 6 months to identify his replacement. Stuart I agree was a lot harder to replace giving the time of season and the availability of players, but there was a taylor-made replacement and we made a futile attempt to sign him. Fyvie was available on a free, had we brought him in then Telfer could have been pushed further up the park. That's two ideal replacements at one club a division below us in our own country. If anything the second part of your post is trite, actually probably more of a sweeping generalization. About half the leagues in the world finish in the winter, therefore, clubs from these leagues (The Scandanavian countries and Eastern European countries where we've had a lot of success signing players) will be releasing players from their contracts/negotiating departures of players under-contract that are deemed surplus to requirements, to assume there is only two types of players available to the club shows naivety on your part. Look at Fojut for example, a ready-made replacement who wasn't held in high regard at his club but proved to be an important player for us, there are plenty more players of this mold and the club can afford them, he imo was neither a youngster or second-rate senior. McGowan is another example and he was signed in Janurary, there are plenty players out there who have more than enough quality to play for us, it's all about knowing the market, something Levein carried out to perfection at the club and continues to do so at Hearts. Even the reasons giving to support your argument are a total fallacy. Because we have young players at the club we shouldn't sign more... Had we brought in a fairly talented youngster or two they would now have six months of game time under their belt, furthermore none of the youngsters at the club who could replace Gary or Stuart were out and out replacements, as in none were of a similar mold. We don't/didn't have a natural winger at the club and we prefer to play with two wingers under the current manager. f**k we could have even utilized the loan market, another thing Levein was happy to do when times called for it. And yeah, we can all agree we shouldn't be signing second-rate seniors, however it's far from the only players available. With respect, you seem to have missed the point - quality, experienced players don't come to Dundee United except in very limited circumstances because these players have already been identified and have better offers. That's a function of the size and wealth of the club. There are, of course, exceptions - like Fojut - but you can't build a strategy on saying - let's just raid the Scandinavian/Eastern European market. If it was that easy everyone would be doing it. The rest is too scattergun for me, I'm afraid, and rather straying too far from the point to be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerhouse7 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 what about Danny Swanson where's he now? he did well last season at St Johnston were needing a winger too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punk_dfc Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'd be surprised if Ciftci ends up anywhere except from Celtic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Can you wait until deadline day and sell both him and Souttar in the last hour please? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArabFC Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Andy Robertson aside (and he was just freakishly good, freakishly early), I don't think the standard of player is any lower than it has been in recent years. Instead what we've had is established players leaving and being replaced by less established players - obviously there'll be a dip until those players become established but I don't think we'll have to wait long for the likes of Telfer, Spittal and Muirhead to develop into excellent premiership players at least on a par with the likes of GMS and Armstrong. I'd say the real question isn't whether we will have matchwinners but whether McNamara can put together a decent defence. If the defence finally gets sorted then we've got plenty up front to challenge for Europe again. You're taking the piss right? You were witness to the football we were playing with Robertson, Gauld, GMS, Armstrong and Ciftci, and that we have seen recently? Telfer, Spittal and Muirhead might progress into very good players, but right now, to compare them as a similar standard is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banana Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Rumours on Twitter that Ciftci's rejected the Wigan move. Tully reporting the same: http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/2015/07/01/ciftci-set-to-knock-back-wigan/ what about Danny Swanson where's he now? he did well last season at St Johnston were needing a winger too? Still on the books at Coventry, but the Johnnies apparently wanting him on a permanent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peeeel Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 With respect, you seem to have missed the point - quality, experienced players don't come to Dundee United except in very limited circumstances because these players have already been identified and have better offers. That's a function of the size and wealth of the club. There are, of course, exceptions - like Fojut - but you can't build a strategy on saying - let's just raid the Scandinavian/Eastern European market. If it was that easy everyone would be doing it. The rest is too scattergun for me, I'm afraid, and rather straying too far from the point to be useful. I never missed any point, there will always be players available who have more than enough quality to succeed in this county. I just illustrated a few examples for you. There are plenty of players out there who will sign for United if the club are smart about their business. Levein proved this and continues to prove it at Hearts. It's about knowing the market and moving for the correct players at the correct time. I never said we should build a strategy of soley raiding these countries, but by being aware of certain players availability helps. Like I said in the original point, the manager should be aware of targets for every position, by doing so it gives the club the best chance of securing these players on our budget, waiting till players leave before identifying targets leaves you behind in the market and makes finding the correct quality a million times harder, this is what scouting systems are for. Here's an example. I'm not sure if the club can afford these guys, but if I was McNamara I'd contact thier agents. Goalkeepers without clubs that I think would have more than enough quality for the club. Balazs Megyeri (25) - formally of Olympiacos Piraeus - CV includes; 5 league titles, 3 cup victories and has played in the UK. Alessandro Iacobucci (24) - formally of Parma - CV includes; 129 games throughout the Italian leagues and 40+ clean sheets and a £2.5m move to Parma. Guy Ndy Assembe (29) - formally of Fc Nates - CV includes; 141 games in the first and second tier of French football and 12 international caps. Ivan Karadzhov (26) - formally of PFC Beroe Stara Zagora - CV includes; 122 games and 52 cleans sheets in the Bulgarian top flight and European experience. That's four keepers I'm aware of, that are without clubs and have more than enough experience to come to the club. If I was the manager of a football club I'd personally have a few more targets. Had the club been aware that these players' contracts were set to expire, they could have been scouted and if deemed good enough negotiation could have started in January. So lets not just assume there are no players available, there was over 500 players officially released today who have the pedigree to shine in Scotland. It's just about knowing the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pull My Strings Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 You're taking the piss right? You were witness to the football we were playing with Robertson, Gauld, GMS, Armstrong and Ciftci, and that we have seen recently? Telfer, Spittal and Muirhead might progress into very good players, but right now, to compare them as a similar standard is ridiculous. Was my point really that oblique? Anyhoo, I'm familiar with your blood pressure issues so I'll clarify: I am no suggesting that the team are as good now as they were when those five players were all playing together. There's really nothing in my post which could lead any sober mind to that inference and - indeed - I did explicitly exclude the most important player from that team from consideration. Robertson's a freak and the team are much weaker without him. We still have Ciftci so you can exclude him too (or you can include him if you like but then it's only fair to also include his as-yet-unknown replacement. That leaves Gauld, GMS and Armstrong. Gauld's a wonderful talent but wasn't ever a regular in the first team because of the stage of his development. That leaves GMS and Armstrong as the biggest losses. The point I was making was that the standard of player available to us now - in terms of talent and potential - is no worse that when we had GMS, Armstrong and Gauld available but rather (and here's the science bit so pay attention) they are at an earlier stage of their development. Just as GMS was when he arrived. Just as Gauld was when he broke into the first team. Just as Armstrong was when he arrived. These players are already as good as Armstrong, GMS etc. were at that stage of their development. I'd actually argue that many are better than Armstrong and GMS were at that stage. Armstrong in particular was average as f**k for the first couple of seasons. GMS was working in Farmfoods, I believe. The point is not that we're as good just now as we were then but that we've dropped back because we've got younger, less developed players.Those players have every bit as much potential as the previous crop. It was right to persevere with previous crop and it is right to persevere with this crop. If you want to highlight one sentence and then rant and rave about it in isolation then crack on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pull My Strings Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Here's an example. I'm not sure if the club can afford these guys .. Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peeeel Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Brilliant. Doesn't really change the point does it? It's not my job to know if we can afford these players, however, it is McNamara's job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pull My Strings Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Doesn't really change the point does it? It's not my job to know if we can afford these players, however, it is McNamara's job. Was this your point?: here's a bunch of names I pulled down from the internet. I've never seen any of them play and have no idea how much they cost or whether they'd be interested in coming to United but McNamara's an idiot for not approaching them or their agents (assuming he hasn't approached them because how the fuck would I know). I'm not really sure that point needs much of a rebuttal, to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banana Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Just as Armstrong was when he arrived. It's very easy to forget now that he was very much on the fringes for a few seasons, but there were those of us who were excited at his potential. We're not even talking that long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pull My Strings Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 It's very easy to forget now that he was very much on the fringes for a few seasons, but there were those of us who were excited at his potential. We're not even talking that long ago. Indeed. These guys can go from exciting potential to quality contributors very quickly and we've got about half a dozen players like that currently in the first team squad (if you're including Coote, Johnson and Fraser). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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