When will indyref2 happen?

[Johnny Martin]

3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

On your first point, you are completely wrong as proven by the decision of the Supreme Court yesterday.

On your second point, you are completely wrong as Scotland voted in a majority of its MSPs and MPs who hold pro-IndyRef2 views and stood for election on that.

For what it's worth, I agree that it's too soon for IndyRef2 but that is what people in this country have clearly and repeatedly voted for and that should be the end of the matter regardless of how you or I personally feel.

Democracy means that if people keep voting for IndyRef2, 3, 4, or whatever then that is precisely what they should be getting.

Can't agree that the devolved assembly's lack of power to decide referenda means Scots can't establish independence if they want it.  Scots voters and politicians have the same levers as everyone else, and can use them to try and achieve any goal they want.  If a clear majority of Scots wanted a break away, say 60% or something, and it was sustained for a long time, then the pressure for a referendum would be huge and they'd get it one way or another.

Part of democracy is respecting results, which isn't currently being done by those of a nationalist persuasion.  The SNP has been highly irresponsible by including referendum promises in their Holyrood manifestos, as the issue has never been one for the devolved assembly.

It'd be like a party getting voted into Renfrewshire council on the back of a promise to increase military spending, then screaming that democracy has been denied when they are ignored.

[Bad Wolf]

5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Why was the consistent polling of 60% (which doesn't depend 'only' on voting for 1 particular party), good enough for Nicola Sturgeon...or was she too stupid to understand that when she proposed it a few months ago as well? I can only only assume so.

I am aware of other folk expressing a preference to vote Green in a post-Independent Scotland, as well. Not quite sure that the Greens will be forming a govt after the first Scottish GE though.

Nicola says lots of things, some of which I agree with, and some I don't. I feel she's lost her touch in the last year and a half or so, to the point where I would have preferred to see her replaced by Jo Cherry. So I can't speak for her, and not being a cult member (merely a voter), I don't have to agree with her. 

 

The Greens won't be forming a government by themselves, but I'm hoping they will be in coalition. I may choose to daydream that they could win an election outright one day, but I'm realistic about it's prospects. 

[Lukovic]

1 minute ago, Bad Wolf said:

I feel she's lost her touch in the last year and a half or so, to the point where I would have preferred to see her replaced by Jo Cherry

Plenty.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 hour ago, btb said:

Baroness Arlene Foster is launching a new focus group to promote the benefits of the Union to folks in NI & Scotland - should please our more staunch posters. 

Ah well Arlene is a very balanced individual who has broad spectrum appeal. 

46 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Rattled by the proposal/prospect of the SNP now sweeping up well beyond 50% of the vote in the GE. Nah, sorry, don't see that happening.

What’s it like hating your own country so much that you think it needs to be tied to another country who genuinely treat you with complete contempt? I cant really figure out that mindset? Does it feel nice when they pat you on the head and tell you you’re a good little house jock?

[sparky88]

23 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Jesus wept. People who support independence aren't going to vote for an anti-independence party

They might if whether Scotland is independent or not isnt the most important issue to them. 

[Antlion]

18 minutes ago, Johnny Martin said:

 

Part of democracy is respecting results, which isn't currently being done by those of a nationalist persuasion. 

This is a UK Nationalist lie.

[Bad Wolf]

2 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

They might if whether Scotland is independent or not isnt the most important issue to them. 

I suppose that's true in theory. It would probably help if we were all aware of the vast range of ScotLab policies rather than an endless loop of "SNP bad!". That aside, I hardly think it's uncommon for many of us, for or against, to consider independence a somewhat more pressing issue than, say, potholes on the B7076. 

[Johnny Martin]

1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

Scotland cannot unilaterally make decisions about leaving the UK.

Period.

Not sure why you are pretending otherwise.

I never said Scotland could unilaterally make decisions about leaving the UK.

[Antlion]

4 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I suppose that's true in theory. It would probably help if we were all aware of the vast range of ScotLab policies rather than an endless loop of "SNP bad!". That aside, I hardly think it's uncommon for many of us, for or against, to consider independence a somewhat more pressing issue than, say, potholes on the B7076. 

Have Starmer’s focus groups told them what these are yet, though?

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, Johnny Martin said:

I never said Scotland could unilaterally make decisions about leaving the UK.

Perhaps you can explain exactly how “Scots can establish independence if they want it”, then? Please be very specific.

[sparky88]

8 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I suppose that's true in theory. It would probably help if we were all aware of the vast range of ScotLab policies rather than an endless loop of "SNP bad!". That aside, I hardly think it's uncommon for many of us, for or against, to consider independence a somewhat more pressing issue than, say, potholes on the B7076. 

Scottish politics hasn't spent enough time talking about potholes on the B7076 and too much talking about independence. Sooner we can stop talking about the constitution the better. 

Making the constitution the most pressing issue in peoples' minds when they think about politics is probably Salmond's greatest achievement. The way people just dismiss all other issues at the expense of whether Scotland should be independent or not is quite remarkable. People in Scotland weren't thinking like that 25 years ago. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by sparky88

[DeeTillEhDeh]

We are constantly told that Independence 'isn't about the SNP', while on the other hand, that 'only' a vote for them (in the next GE this time around) can secure Independence.
I am heartened to at least hear some folk saying that they would not vote SNP post-Independence, but rather look at other parties, and decide based on the policies put forward. Fair play.
The most likely route to Independence, is still one which I hope will come to fruition. That is....opinion polling over a fair length of time which demonstrates that the views of the Scottish people are beyond doubt on the question. Not 50:50 etc, but polls of 60%. As said, NS herself proposed this in the not too distant past. And given that was her position, why has she now abandoned that? Is it only because it potentially erodes the SNP's own power base?
That is the scenario which decouples Independence from the SNP. That is where Independence truly isn't about any one party. Indeed, that is where people could vote Labour, Liberal, Green, SNP, whatever they so wished, and 'still' achieve Independence.(as they could prefer Lab,Lib whatever policies, but still support Independence as an objective). Its the only way to broaden the Yes movement again. No UK govt whatever its make up could hold out indefinitely if the polls were of that accord. At the moment, they can as there is so little space between Yes/No/Don't know.
That route to Independence also gives us the best chance of the first government of an Independent Scotland not being dominated by the SNP's vision of it.
Of course the SNP want Yes supporters to only vote for them/see them as the only route, as that keeps them in power in perpetuity. 

Opinion polls are not democracy.

[Cheese]

If they're making a general election a defacto referendum, then both sides should nominate a single candidate for each seat with an even spread of politicians, celebs and media lackeys and grifters. Scottish Cup style draw made by a drunken Rod Stewart. Nicola Sturgeon v Neil Oliver in Orkney, Douglas Ross v The Wee Ginger Dug in Edinburgh North and Leith. Martin Compston v JK Rowling in Na h-Eileanan an Iar.

Box. Office.

[Bad Wolf]

5 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Have Starmer’s focus groups told them what these are yet, though?

Starmer's focus groups = Heil editorial writers, so yes, they have.

[Antlion]

8 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

Scottish politics hasn't spent enough time talking about potholes on the B7076 and too much talking about independence. Sooner we can stop talking about the constitution the better. 

Easy fix there: a legal referendum on whether or not we want to be part of Brexit Britain. Only one side is refusing this.

Also, it hardly needs to be said that the continual discussion of the constitution kind of indicates that there is a sizeable problem with the constitution.

It’s almost like a motheaten, uncodified constitution founded on an imperial movement isn’t fit for purpose in a globalist, post-imperial world. Fudges like the condescending “devolution” and lies about “unions of equals” really don’t seem to have provided a solution to modern problems like intra-UK Brexit divisions and differing immigration needs and wants.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Antlion

[renton]

1 hour ago, scottsdad said:

On the next election, I will vote based on my priorities at the time. I do not accept the assertion from Nicola Sturgeon that it is a de facto referendum. 

Asking voters to ignore every other policy and thought aside from independence, when the result won't make the slightest difference, is wrong IMO. 

So is denying Scotland a democratic route to deciding its own future but that's the world we find ourselves in.

Besides, in some respects it's the most honest an SNP WM manifesto will have ever been. Who cares what the SNP think about tax and spend, immigration or the EU when they will never be allowed to exercise those positions?

The SNP's only concern at WM is the constitution, and always has been. 

[Bad Wolf]

4 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

Scottish politics hasn't spent enough time talking about potholes on the B7076 and too much talking about independence. Sooner we can stop talking about the constitution the better. 

Ironically, the council responsible for those potholes (which are pretty fucking bad) is a Labour/SNP coalition! One that that nice Mr Sarwar said would never happen, amusingly.

[renton]

8 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

Scottish politics hasn't spent enough time talking about potholes on the B7076 and too much talking about independence. Sooner we can stop talking about the constitution the better. 

Making the constitution the most pressing issue in peoples' minds when they think about politics is probably Salmond's greatest achievement. The way people just dismiss all other issues at the expense of whether Scotland should be independent or not is quite remarkable. People in Scotland weren't thinking like that 25 years ago. 

The constitution is a live issue because enough voters make it so. Its a democracy after all. 

If Labour want to get back to the good ol' days of the Executive arguing over pot holes then they need to find a settlement or some suite of policies that effectively defuse that electoral ticking box by taking votes away from the SNP and the Greens. Who knows, maybe Gordon Brown's chamber of the nations and regions will set a fire in the imagination of the Scottish electorate.

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Can't agree that the devolved assembly's lack of power to decide referenda means Scots can't establish independence if they want it.  Scots voters and politicians have the same levers as everyone else, and can use them to try and achieve any goal they want.  If a clear majority of Scots wanted a break away, say 60% or something, and it was sustained for a long time, then the pressure for a referendum would be huge and they'd get it one way or another.
Part of democracy is respecting results, which isn't currently being done by those of a nationalist persuasion.  The SNP has been highly irresponsible by including referendum promises in their Holyrood manifestos, as the issue has never been one for the devolved assembly.
It'd be like a party getting voted into Renfrewshire council on the back of a promise to increase military spending, then screaming that democracy has been denied when they are ignored.

What a steaming pile of shite.

So 60% to leave the Union but leaving the EU was 52% - and could have been 50% + 1 vote.

As ever the Britnats move the goalposts any time the SNP meets or looks like meeting their criteria.

What democratic route is there?

We could return 100% of a vote for independence parties and they can still ignore it.

[Antlion]

22 minutes ago, renton said:

 

The SNP's only concern at WM is the constitution, and always has been. 

An often overlooked issue. Any Scottish party could send the full complement of Scottish MPs to Westminster to enact a clear manifesto, and there they would be soundly blocked on every single vote unless MPs from outside Scotland decided to vote with them.

There is almost no point in any Scottish-based party even having a manifesto in a UK GE election, because Scotland as a nation has no independent power to vote through anything - whether on immigration or defence - it was elected to vote through.

Obviously, to some this is an unacceptable position - for any self-respecting nation hoping to get things done democratically. To UK nationalist parties, it’s simply a tool with which to blackmail Scots into voting for them - “Vote for us because only with English and Welsh MPs’ agreement do you have even a chance of getting what you vote for”.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Antlion