When will indyref2 happen?

[Suspect Device]

45 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

So if the next GE is going to be a de facto Referendum where does that leave all the supposedly YES posters who have said they won’t vote SNP?

I'd have to vote for SNP, Green or Alba. None of which appeals.

It would depend how it's framed. If the vote for any independence party is to be used as an indicator of a 'referendum Yes'  vote then I don't have to vote SNP. If they're stupid enough to limit it to only a vote for the SNP is a Yes, then I'd have to grit my teeth and vote SNP.

I've had plenty practice as I grew to dislike them more and more but saw it as the only way to vote for independence.

[Todd_is_God]

56 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

So if the next GE is going to be a de facto Referendum where does that leave all the supposedly YES posters who have said they won’t vote SNP?

Still not voting SNP.

The SNP can call it whatever they want. The bottom line is it will make absolutely no difference to WM's stance - we're not getting another referendum any time soon. There's currently no way for them to force one either, and the SNP will never declare independence without one.

Time to face up to that, and focus instead on better with what they actually can control.

[git-intae-thum]

7 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Still not voting SNP.

The SNP can call it whatever they want. The bottom line is it will make absolutely no difference to WM's stance - we're not getting another referendum any time soon. There's currently no way for them to force one either, and the SNP will never declare independence without one.

Time to face up to that, and focus instead on better with what they actually can control.

My understanding is that the election will be the de facto referendum. No further referendum is needed. Greater than 50% of votes for pro independence parties is a sound democratic mandate to open negotiations for independence.

Why bother seeking Westminster approval for another referendum when they have shown no respect for our democracy.

 

[btb]

Baroness Arlene Foster is launching a new focus group to promote the benefits of the Union to folks in NI & Scotland - should please our more staunch posters. 

[Todd_is_God]

16 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

My understanding is that the election will be the de facto referendum. No further referendum is needed. Greater than 50% of votes for pro independence parties is a sound democratic mandate to open negotiations for independence.

Why bother seeking Westminster approval for another referendum when they have shown no respect for our democracy.

Sounds good, but means nothing in reality.

WM can, and will, simply refuse to enter negotiations, and there is nothing the SG can do about it.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[scottsdad]

On the next election, I will vote based on my priorities at the time. I do not accept the assertion from Nicola Sturgeon that it is a de facto referendum. 

Asking voters to ignore every other policy and thought aside from independence, when the result won't make the slightest difference, is wrong IMO. 

[Granny Danger]

47 minutes ago, Suspect Device said:

I'd have to vote for SNP, Green or Alba. None of which appeals.

It would depend how it's framed. If the vote for any independence party is to be used as an indicator of a 'referendum Yes'  vote then I don't have to vote SNP. If they're stupid enough to limit it to only a vote for the SNP is a Yes, then I'd have to grit my teeth and vote SNP.

I've had plenty practice as I grew to dislike them more and more but saw it as the only way to vote for independence.

^^^ genuinely wants Independence.

38 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Still not voting SNP.

The SNP can call it whatever they want. The bottom line is it will make absolutely no difference to WM's stance - we're not getting another referendum any time soon. There's currently no way for them to force one either, and the SNP will never declare independence without one.

Time to face up to that, and focus instead on better with what they actually can control.

^^^ claims to want Independence but doesn’t really.

 

These two posts are probably a microcosm of the good guy/w**k classification.

[Guest Jedi]

We are constantly told that Independence 'isn't about the SNP', while on the other hand, that 'only' a vote for them (in the next GE this time around) can secure Independence.

I am heartened to at least hear some folk saying that they would not vote SNP post-Independence, but rather look at other parties, and decide based on the policies put forward. Fair play.

The most likely route to Independence, is still one which I hope will come to fruition. That is....opinion polling over a fair length of time which demonstrates that the views of the Scottish people are beyond doubt on the question. Not 50:50 etc, but polls of 60%. As said, NS herself proposed this in the not too distant past. And given that was her position, why has she now abandoned that? Is it only because it potentially erodes the SNP's own power base?

That is the scenario which decouples Independence from the SNP. That is where Independence truly isn't about any one party. Indeed, that is where people could vote Labour, Liberal, Green, SNP, whatever they so wished, and 'still' achieve Independence.(as they could prefer Lab,Lib whatever policies, but still support Independence as an objective). Its the only way to broaden the Yes movement again. No UK govt whatever its make up could hold out indefinitely if the polls were of that accord. At the moment, they can as there is so little space between Yes/No/Don't know.

That route to Independence also gives us the best chance of the first government of an Independent Scotland not being dominated by the SNP's vision of it.

Of course the SNP want Yes supporters to only vote for them/see them as the only route, as that keeps them in power in perpetuity. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Jedi

[Guest Jedi]

2 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Whats clear here, beyond any reasonable doubt, is that you and all the rest of the britnat tory (red or blue) enablers are not rattled in any way, no sir, you guys are not rattled at all.

Rattled by the proposal/prospect of the SNP now sweeping up well beyond 50% of the vote in the GE. Nah, sorry, don't see that happening.

[Antlion]

5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

 

I am heartened to at least hear some folk saying that they would not vote SNP post-Independence, but rather look at other parties, and decide based on the policies put forward. Fair play.

 

You’ve been having this pointed out to you since you started cheerleading for Sir Keir’s “Make Brexit Work” Labour Party months ago. Is that it just sinking in?

[Guest Jedi]

Just now, Antlion said:

You’ve been having this pointed out to you since you started cheerleading for Sir Keir’s “Make Brexit Work” Labour Party months ago. Is that it just sinking in?

Given the general hatred expressed for anything Labour connected, whole threads devoted to why you would 'never' vote for them, prospect of anyone on here 'looking at the policies out forward' post-Independence, yes. 

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, Jedi said:

Given the general hatred expressed for anything Labour connected, whole threads devoted to why you would 'never' vote for them, prospect of anyone on here 'looking at the policies out forward' post-Independence, yes. 

UK Labour (and it’s Accounting Unit here) are vile, as is their current stuffed suit leader. That says nothing about a putative Scottish Labour Party which does not yet even exist.

[Bad Wolf]

28 minutes ago, Jedi said:

That is the scenario which decouples Independence from the SNP. That is where Independence truly isn't about any one party. Indeed, that is where people could vote Labour, Liberal, Green, SNP, whatever they so wished, and 'still' achieve Independence.(as they could prefer Lab,Lib whatever policies, but still support Independence as an objective).

Jesus wept. People who support independence aren't going to vote for an anti-independence party, Labour, until that party changes it's position on independence. I can't believe you're too stupid too understand this, so I'm assuming you're being disingenuous in some way, which I genuinely cannot fathom.

 

I currently vote SNP and Green, but I consider the latter my party of choice, and will have no reason to vote for the former post-independence. I'm not alone in this, either here on IRL, but it doesn't fit your narrative so you ignore our position.

[Guest Jedi]

8 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Jesus wept. People who support independence aren't going to vote for an anti-independence party, Labour, until that party changes it's position on independence. I can't believe you're too stupid too understand this, so I'm assuming you're being disingenuous in some way, which I genuinely cannot fathom.

 

I currently vote SNP and Green, but I consider the latter my party of choice, and will have no reason to vote for the former post-independence. I'm not alone in this, either here on IRL, but it doesn't fit your narrative so you ignore our position.

Why was the consistent polling of 60% (which doesn't depend 'only' on voting for 1 particular party), good enough for Nicola Sturgeon...or was she too stupid to understand that when she proposed it a few months ago as well? I can only only assume so.

I am aware of other folk expressing a preference to vote Green in a post-Independent Scotland, as well. Not quite sure that the Greens will be forming a govt after the first Scottish GE though.

[Johnny Martin]

3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

On your first point, you are completely wrong as proven by the decision of the Supreme Court yesterday.

On your second point, you are completely wrong as Scotland voted in a majority of its MSPs and MPs who hold pro-IndyRef2 views and stood for election on that.

For what it's worth, I agree that it's too soon for IndyRef2 but that is what people in this country have clearly and repeatedly voted for and that should be the end of the matter regardless of how you or I personally feel.

Democracy means that if people keep voting for IndyRef2, 3, 4, or whatever then that is precisely what they should be getting.

Can't agree that the devolved assembly's lack of power to decide referenda means Scots can't establish independence if they want it.  Scots voters and politicians have the same levers as everyone else, and can use them to try and achieve any goal they want.  If a clear majority of Scots wanted a break away, say 60% or something, and it was sustained for a long time, then the pressure for a referendum would be huge and they'd get it one way or another.

Part of democracy is respecting results, which isn't currently being done by those of a nationalist persuasion.  The SNP has been highly irresponsible by including referendum promises in their Holyrood manifestos, as the issue has never been one for the devolved assembly.

It'd be like a party getting voted into Renfrewshire council on the back of a promise to increase military spending, then screaming that democracy has been denied when they are ignored.

[Bad Wolf]

5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Why was the consistent polling of 60% (which doesn't depend 'only' on voting for 1 particular party), good enough for Nicola Sturgeon...or was she too stupid to understand that when she proposed it a few months ago as well? I can only only assume so.

I am aware of other folk expressing a preference to vote Green in a post-Independent Scotland, as well. Not quite sure that the Greens will be forming a govt after the first Scottish GE though.

Nicola says lots of things, some of which I agree with, and some I don't. I feel she's lost her touch in the last year and a half or so, to the point where I would have preferred to see her replaced by Jo Cherry. So I can't speak for her, and not being a cult member (merely a voter), I don't have to agree with her. 

 

The Greens won't be forming a government by themselves, but I'm hoping they will be in coalition. I may choose to daydream that they could win an election outright one day, but I'm realistic about it's prospects. 

[Lukovic]

1 minute ago, Bad Wolf said:

I feel she's lost her touch in the last year and a half or so, to the point where I would have preferred to see her replaced by Jo Cherry

Plenty.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 hour ago, btb said:

Baroness Arlene Foster is launching a new focus group to promote the benefits of the Union to folks in NI & Scotland - should please our more staunch posters. 

Ah well Arlene is a very balanced individual who has broad spectrum appeal. 

46 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Rattled by the proposal/prospect of the SNP now sweeping up well beyond 50% of the vote in the GE. Nah, sorry, don't see that happening.

What’s it like hating your own country so much that you think it needs to be tied to another country who genuinely treat you with complete contempt? I cant really figure out that mindset? Does it feel nice when they pat you on the head and tell you you’re a good little house jock?

[sparky88]

23 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Jesus wept. People who support independence aren't going to vote for an anti-independence party

They might if whether Scotland is independent or not isnt the most important issue to them. 

[Antlion]

18 minutes ago, Johnny Martin said:

 

Part of democracy is respecting results, which isn't currently being done by those of a nationalist persuasion. 

This is a UK Nationalist lie.