When will indyref2 happen?

[Binos]

The message was we would get extensive new powers

And all we got really was the ability to tax our income more, as they hoped would be a vote loser 

No power that would allow us to grow our economy, certainly nothing extensive 

It was a lie

Edited June 6 by Binos

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

22 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

I note that you didn't even attempt to answer the point about it being unconstitutional to describe the Scottish Parliament as "permanent". 

However, you appear to have forgotten about the effects of Section 63A(3) of the Scotland Act 1998, brought into law on 23/03/2016 as a result of the Smith Commission's "implementation" of the vow. This section specifically states the manner by which the Scottish Parliament can be abolished

63A(3)... ...the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are not to be abolished except on the basis of a decision of the people of Scotland voting in a referendum.

So, effectively, you are arguing that the vow was kept because they said so, and the new section 63A(3) was in no way a step toward abolition, even though it specifically stated what needed to happen before the "permanent" Scottish Parliament could be abolished.

That's the Yoon definition of permanency in a nutshell. 

Obviously, Section 63A(3) could also be removed at the stroke of a Westminster pen, so we aren't even guaranteed a referendum should the UK Government decide to abolish the Scottish Government tomorrow. But hey, permamency! What ho!

I don’t see it as unconstitutional to describe the Scottish Parliament as permanent at all.  Going by the very definition of the term, it absolutely is.

 

Correct, 63A(3) isn’t a step toward abolition at all.  There’s no demand for a referendum and the main parties all seem to want to keep it.

[lichtgilphead]

3 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

I don’t see it as unconstitutional to describe the Scottish Parliament as permanent at all.  Going by the very definition of the term, it absolutely is.

Either you don't understand the English doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty, or you are being particularly obtuse. No current parliament can bind any future parliament. That's why the proposed amendment of Section 1 of the Scotland Act was rejected.

That's a statement of constitutional fact, no matter how much you squeal about your opinions.

3 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

Correct, 63A(3) isn’t a step toward abolition at all.

In your uninformed opinion, perhaps.

I would point out (again), that there was no specific mechanism to abolish the Scottish Parliament before enactment of the Smith Comission's recommendations. Now there is. 

3 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

There’s no demand for a referendum and the main parties all seem to want to keep it.

Whilst there is currently very little public demand for a referendum to abolish the Scottish Parliament, there's at least one of the Branch Offices that would enthusiastically campaign for repeal of the Scotland Act if their London leadership told them to.

Currently, however, they prefer to bypass Holyrood so they can shovel money into the south & north-east of Scotland, where (just by chance) their few Westminster Scottish MP's are based.

Incidentally, you appear to be forgetting that SNP, Green & Alba policy is to get rid of devolved government in Scotland and to continue as an independent country. That's a total of 71 of the 128 voting members of the current devolved parliament.

Only 57 Lab, Libdem & Tory MSP's currently say that they support devolution and want to keep what many of them refer to as the 'pretendy parliament'

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

1 hour ago, lichtgilphead said:

Either you don't understand the English doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty, or you are being particularly obtuse. No current parliament can bind any future parliament. That's why the proposed amendment of Section 1 of the Scotland Act was rejected.

That's a statement of constitutional fact, no matter how much you squeal about your opinions.

In your uninformed opinion, perhaps.

I would point out (again), that there was no specific mechanism to abolish the Scottish Parliament before enactment of the Smith Comission's recommendations. Now there is. 

Whilst there is currently very little public demand for a referendum to abolish the Scottish Parliament, there's at least one of the Branch Offices that would enthusiastically campaign for repeal of the Scotland Act if their London leadership told them to.

Currently, however, they prefer to bypass Holyrood so they can shovel money into the south & north-east of Scotland, where (just by chance) their few Westminster Scottish MP's are based.

Incidentally, you appear to be forgetting that SNP, Green & Alba policy is to get rid of devolved government in Scotland and to continue as an independent country. That's a total of 71 of the 128 voting members of the current devolved parliament.

Only 57 Lab, Libdem & Tory MSP's currently say that they support devolution and want to keep what many of them refer to as the 'pretendy parliament'

I was hoping you wouldn’t reply!

Give me some time to digest this bud.

[Jedi2]

Whatever did happen to Murray Foote, Chief Editor of the Record at the time of the Vow and a driving force behind its publication...oh wait.

[lichtgilphead]

10 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

Whatever did happen to Murray Foote, Chief Editor of the Record at the time of the Vow and a driving force behind its publication...oh wait.

The one and only Murray "I've always believed in Indy" Foote?

He's just another in a long list of Labour politicians & supporters who are happy to change their views when it suits their own pockets or personal political ambitions. I could even suggest that he knows which way the wind is blowing?

However, he's a salaried employee, not an elected politician.

When it comes to Labour politicians, the two most recent to change their views that spring to mind are Lord Alistair "worker's republic" Darling and Sir Keir "If you don't like my principles, I have others" Starmer

[Jedi2]

Broken Pledges and Promises you say...

Scrap the Council Tax and replace it with a Local Income Tax (2007)

Reduce class sizes in Primaries to 18 or less

A National Care Service

Free Laptops and Bikes

A National Energy Company

Close the Attainement Gap (it's gone up)

Hold a Referendum in Oct 2023

Freeze Income Tax

Ferries

Dual the A9

Tackle Child Poverty (its gone up)

Reduce NHS Waiting Lists (up)

Build 110,000 affordable homes (target missed)

Using the Private Sector for Healthcare Services

Making all messages and information available to a Covid Enquiry

A Four Day Working Week.

 

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1 hour ago, Jedi2 said:

Broken Pledges and Promises you say...

Scrap the Council Tax and replace it with a Local Income Tax (2007)

Reduce class sizes in Primaries to 18 or less

A National Care Service

Free Laptops and Bikes

A National Energy Company

Close the Attainement Gap (it's gone up)

Hold a Referendum in Oct 2023

Freeze Income Tax

Ferries

Dual the A9

Tackle Child Poverty (its gone up)

Reduce NHS Waiting Lists (up)

Build 110,000 affordable homes (target missed)

Using the Private Sector for Healthcare Services

Making all messages and information available to a Covid Enquiry

A Four Day Working Week.

 

 

You are fooling no-one.

[lichtgilphead]

There's quite a difference between being unable to implement policies due to opposition intransigence (see the Bain Principle) and abandoning all your principles to move to the right to attract Tory voters.

Picking some of @Jedi2's easiest examples to debunk, including some from up to 17 years ago, we find:

• Local Income Tax - blocked by Westminster, who said that they would withdraw 100% of the council tax block grant if implemented
• Primary class sizes - the original target only applied to P1-P3, so not all primaries. Currently, max class sizes have been reduced to 25, thats 5 less  than Tory England or Labour Wales
• 72,000 laptops/tablets and just under 1000 bikes distributed directly by the ScoGov by April 2022. This figure doesn't include Transport Scotland figures for bikes or Local Authority figures for laptops/tablets
• It's ironic that Jedi has mis-spelled "attainment"  He says the gap has gone up. Where do these figures come from? The latest figures I can find (December 2023) state that the gap has reduced since the previous figures from 2018/19 (pre-pandemic)
• 2023 referendum - requested and blocked by UK Government
• Freeze Income Tax - 51% of Scots taxpayers still pay less than their equivalents in rUK. Is "socialist" Jedi complaining on behalf of those earning over £125,000?
• Ferries - at least 6 new ferries due to enter service in 2024 and 2025. I'll be using the MV Isle of Islay in just over 3 months.
• Dual the A9 - would have been finished by now if Labour & their Tory allies hadn't diverted the money to Edinburgh's trams back in 2007
• Child Poverty - 2024 CPAG statistics show child poverty to be stable at 24% in Scotland, compared with the overall UK figure of 30% (which includes the Scottish figure, so E, W & NI total must be worse.) CPAG also point out that these figures don’t yet include the full impact of the roll out of the Scottish child payment.
• NHS waiting lists - up throughout the UK due to the pandemnic - current average waiting time - Labour Wales 21.8 weeks, Tory England 14.9 weeks SNP Scotland - 12 week treatment time guarantee
• Affordable housing - previous target of 50,000 completed on 23 March 2022, and 110,000 target slightly behind schedule for completion date in 2032. However, seeing as Jedi is happy to use figures from 2007, I would point out that since 2007, the SNP have built 123,000 affordable homes.
• Using the private sector for healthcare services - I didn't realise that this was an SNP policy or pledge. Please tell me more!

Yet another Jedi set of soundbites, which can be exposed as misleading or as  outright lies by checking facts. No wonder @DeeTillEhDeh thinks he's fooling no-one.

 

 

Edited June 8 by lichtgilphead
tidying up

[DeeTillEhDeh]

9 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

There's quite a difference between being unable to implement policies due to opposition intransigence (see the Bain Principle) and abandoning all your principles to move to the right to attract Tory voters.

Picking some of @Jedi2's easiest examples to debunk, including some from up to 17 years ago, we find:

• Local Income Tax - blocked by Westminster, who said that they would withdraw 100% of the council tax block grant if implemented
• Primary class sizes - the original target only applied to P1-P3, so not all primaries. Currently, max class sizes have been reduced to 25, thats 5 less  than Tory England or Labour Wales
• 72,000 laptops/tablets and just under 1000 bikes distributed directly by the ScoGov by April 2022. This figure doesn't include Transport Scotland figures for bikes or Local Authority figures for laptops/tablets
• It's ironic that Jedi has mis-spelled "attainment"  He says the gap has gone up. Where do these figures come from? The latest figures I can find (December 2023) state that the gap has reduced since the previous figures from 2018/19 (pre-pandemic)
• 2023 referendum - requested and blocked by UK Government
• Freeze Income Tax - 51% of Scots taxpayers still pay less than their equivalents in rUK. Is "socialist" Jedi complaining on behalf of those earning over £125,000?
• Ferries - at least 6 new ferries due to enter service in 2024 and 2025. I'll be using the MV Isle of Islay in just over 3 months.
• Dual the A9 - would have been finished by now if Labour & their Tory allies hadn't diverted the money to Edinburgh's trams back in 2007
• Child Poverty - 2024 CPAG statistics show child poverty to be stable at 24% in Scotland, compared with the overall UK figure of 30% (which includes the Scottish figure, so E, W & NI total must be worse.) CPAG also point out that these figures don’t yet include the full impact of the roll out of the Scottish child payment.
• NHS waiting lists - up throughout the UK due to the pandemnic - current average waiting time - Labour Wales 21.8 weeks, Tory England 14.9 weeks SNP Scotland - 12 week treatment time guarantee
• Affordable housing - previous target of 50,000 completed on 23 March 2022, and 110,000 target slightly behind schedule for completion date in 2032. However, seeing as Jedi is happy to use figures from 2007, I would point out that since 2007, the SNP have built 123,000 affordable homes.
• Using the private sector for healthcare services - I didn't realise that this was an SNP policy or pledge. Please tell me more!

Yet another Jedi set of soundbites, which can be exposed as misleading or as  outright lies by checking facts. No wonder @DeeTillEhDeh thinks he's fooling no-one.

 

 

I also have a very strong suspicion who he is.

[Jedi2]

Private Sector in Health Care. Not my words, but Neil Grays

I’m relatively pragmatic. I can certainly see a role for the innovation that is currently going on that is driven through the private sector in consort with the academic sector.

“I can certainly see a role for the greater usage of some of that innovation and to really make sure we are working together to find how we can accelerate some of that so we can see faster treatment, so we can see faster diagnostics and diagnosis, which in turn will free up clinical time.'

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/new-scots-health-minister-wont-32255753#amp-readmore-target

I note that the National Care Service and National Energy Company (both 'flagship' policies) aren't on your list (let me guess..Westminster blocked both of them)

Child Poverty Rates (which are 26%, not 24, and rising, described by Oxfam as a 'collective stain on our national conscience' The fact that the rates are small % lower than England or Wales but rising under an SNP govt doesn't exactly do them credit.

https://oxfamapps.org/scotland/2024/03/21/scottish-poverty-rate-remains-a-shameful-stain-on-our-collective-conscience/

A9..is now delayed until 2035.

1 in 6 people in Scotland on an NHS Waiting list. Perhaps 'lower' than England but again hardly a record to be proud of.

Just over 2 in 5 young people living in the most deprived areas achieve one or more Higher when leaving school (43.5%) compared to almost 4 in 5 young people living in the least deprived areas (79.3%)...that's not a gap closing.

Ah the Ferries, being built by Turkey and Yousaf's pal, Erdogan, the man cited for genocide against the Kurds, who the Scot govt are so keen to do business with,(as well as China of course with the close friendship and co-operation deals of Angus Robertson last November)...just the 1 million Uyghur Muslims detained there.

Reducing class sizes to 25 when your promise was 18 or under isn't 'meeting' said promise.

To add to the list we can now have dropping 'SNP for Independence' on thr Ballot papers for the GE. Whatever has happened to 'Page 1, Line 1'? Two debates in and not a mention of Independence by either Swinney or Flynn.

 

 

 

 

 

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

2 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

Broken Pledges and Promises you say...

Scrap the Council Tax and replace it with a Local Income Tax (2007)

Reduce class sizes in Primaries to 18 or less

A National Care Service

Free Laptops and Bikes

A National Energy Company

Close the Attainement Gap (it's gone up)

Hold a Referendum in Oct 2023

Freeze Income Tax

Ferries

Dual the A9

Tackle Child Poverty (its gone up)

Reduce NHS Waiting Lists (up)

Build 110,000 affordable homes (target missed)

Using the Private Sector for Healthcare Services

Making all messages and information available to a Covid Enquiry

A Four Day Working Week.

 

 

They’ve been talking about dualling the A9 that long that it should have about 10 lanes by now!  

[Wee Bully]

3 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

Private Sector in Health Care. Not my words, but Neil Grays

I’m relatively pragmatic. I can certainly see a role for the innovation that is currently going on that is driven through the private sector in consort with the academic sector.

“I can certainly see a role for the greater usage of some of that innovation and to really make sure we are working together to find how we can accelerate some of that so we can see faster treatment, so we can see faster diagnostics and diagnosis, which in turn will free up clinical time.'

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/new-scots-health-minister-wont-32255753#amp-readmore-target

I note that the National Care Service and National Energy Company (both 'flagship' policies) aren't on your list (let me guess..Westminster blocked both of them)

Child Poverty Rates (which are 26%, not 24, and rising, described by Oxfam as a 'collective stain on our national conscience' The fact that the rates are small % lower than England or Wales but rising under an SNP govt doesn't exactly do them credit.

https://oxfamapps.org/scotland/2024/03/21/scottish-poverty-rate-remains-a-shameful-stain-on-our-collective-conscience/

A9..is now delayed until 2035.

1 in 6 people in Scotland on an NHS Waiting list. Perhaps 'lower' than England but again hardly a record to be proud of.

Just over 2 in 5 young people living in the most deprived areas achieve one or more Higher when leaving school (43.5%) compared to almost 4 in 5 young people living in the least deprived areas (79.3%)...that's not a gap closing.

Ah the Ferries, being built by Turkey and Yousaf's pal, Erdogan, the man cited for genocide against the Kurds, who the Scot govt are so keen to do business with,(as well as China of course with the close friendship and co-operation deals of Angus Robertson last November)...just the 1 million Uyghur Muslims detained there.

Reducing class sizes to 25 when your promise was 18 or under isn't 'meeting' said promise.

To add to the list we can now have dropping 'SNP for Independence' on thr Ballot papers for the GE. Whatever has happened to 'Page 1, Line 1'? Two debates in and not a mention of Independence by either Swinney or Flynn.

 

 

 

 

 

Where does your 26% come from?  The linked article says 24%. 

[lichtgilphead]

1 minute ago, Wee Bully said:

Where does your 26% come from?  The linked article says 24%. 

It's just another bunch of Jedi's lies and/or half-truths

• His link to the Daily Record article on private healthcare states that Labour will "hold the door wide open" to privatisation
• The commitments re the National Care Service & National Public Energy Agency in the SNP 2021 manifesto are "during the current parliamentary term" both are due in 2025. The parlimentary term doesn't finish until 2026.
• As you correctly point out, his article confirms my "stable at 24%" figure for child poverty
• The SNP 2021 manifesto commits the SNP to completing the dualling of the A9. It doesn't specify a date. Work is ongoing
• The NHS waiting list contains people who have been on the list for less that a week. Even then, the largest waiting list ever (due to the pandemic) is 1 in 8, not 1 in 6. Just another unsupported lie.
• His figures for the attainment gap just show that it exists. No-one denies that. His figures do not show if it is increasing, stable or decreasing
• It's not illegal to trade with Turkey or China. UK government figures show £16 billion & £58.8 billion of imports respectively in 2023. Perhaps Sir Keir will stop dealing with dodgy regimes. He could start be stopping selling arms to the IDF.
• He admits that the SNP have reduced class sizes in Scotland, but is strangely silent on the complete lack of progress in Tory England or Labour Wales
• With regard to the claims about Swinney & Flynn not mentioning independence, the debates concentrated upon the panellists answering questions from the audience or each other. As none of the questions posed to either SNP representative concerned independence, they would have been accused of not answering the question posed if they had shoehorned it into their response. 
• Finally, that SNP supporting rag, the Daily Telegraph, reported only 4 days ago that "page one, line one of the manifesto will state: “Vote SNP for Scotland to become an independent country.” and "proposed new logos with “SNP independence” or “SNP for independence” to appear on general election ballot papers."

I continue to wonder where Dr. Jedi got his oft-mentioned  PhD from, given his unsupported lies and continual lack of evidence to prove his ridiculous claims.

[Jedi2]

Oft-mentioned PhD  Once mentioned by me, about 20 times by you.

[lichtgilphead]

Yes. 20 times by me is "oft-mentioned" Your point is?

Why pick on that point rather than defending your lies & half-truths?

EDITED TO ADD: Your first mention of your PhD (on this thread alone) was in 2019

 

Edited June 8 by lichtgilphead

[Granny Danger]

18 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

I continue to wonder where Dr. Jedi got his oft-mentioned  PhD from, given his unsupported lies and continual lack of evidence to prove his ridiculous claims.

He’s no got a PhD.  I’d bet my Official NASA Rocket Driver’s Licence on it.

[Wee Bully]

58 minutes ago, Jedi2 said:

Oft-mentioned PhD  Once mentioned by me, about 20 times by you.

So, where does your 26% come from?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

He’s no got a PhD.  I’d bet my Official NASA Rocket Driver’s Licence on it.

If he is who I think he is he does have a PhD.

[Granny Danger]

23 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

If he is who I think he is he does have a PhD.

You’re not getting a lift in my rocket.