When will indyref2 happen?

[git-intae-thum]

^^^^^

Very good post above from Black and white tragic defining the "nationalists" in this debate.

I believe in Scottish independence. I am not a "nationalist." I do not believe my country is in any way exceptional to any other. I believe we should be on a par with them. I believe that close government to a population is simply the best way to govern a land. I am in favour of that population joining larger unions, but only on our terms, when it is beneficial to us. For at least half a century that has blatently not been the case for us within a UK framework.

Personally, I think it has been and would continue to be so within a European framework. I also would hope this would lead to an eventual world framework.

That is not "nationalism." It is "internationalism."

In contrast, "nationalists" believe in exceptionalism. This is the language of the UK. From the mainstream media, to the government, many sections of UK society and most prominently the proponents of Brexit.

The only "nationalists" in this debate are, and always have been, British nationalists.

The true "nats"

Edited April 1, 2017 by git-intae-thum

[git-intae-thum]

5 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

A manifesto policy to call for a vote rather than to leave Europe, no?  Almost certainly premised on Dave's belief we'd remain.  He underestimated the xenophobia of white van man.

Muckspreader is right in seeking "the right deal for The UK" and, however much The Nats hate to admit it, they are part of the process.  I know this goes against the grain but the Brexit issue is as much Scotland's issue as much as anyone's.

MS is also right in saying, "We could, in theory, all be winners if the will is there !"

Now I'm off for a long, hot shower.

No. We have the option of another way. Balls to aw those nationalist roasters.

[ayrmad]

6 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

A manifesto policy to call for a vote rather than to leave Europe, no?  Almost certainly premised on Dave's belief we'd remain.  He underestimated the xenophobia of white van man.

Muckspreader is right in seeking "the right deal for The UK" and, however much The Nats hate to admit it, they are part of the process.  I know this goes against the grain but the Brexit issue is as much Scotland's issue as much as anyone's.

MS is also right in saying, "We could, in theory, all be winners if the will is there !"

Now I'm off for a long, hot shower.

I can't say I've noticed loads of pensioners driving white vans.

[Black and White Tragic]

A manifesto policy to call for a vote rather than to leave Europe, no?  Almost certainly premised on Dave's belief we'd remain.  He underestimated the xenophobia of white van man.
Muckspreader is right in seeking "the right deal for The UK" and, however much The Nats hate to admit it, they are part of the process.  I know this goes against the grain but the Brexit issue is as much Scotland's issue as much as anyone's.
MS is also right in saying, "We could, in theory, all be winners if the will is there !"
Now I'm off for a long, hot shower.

Dave took a calculated risk to win power, he needed to woo enough brexiters from Labour and UKIP. Some may say that got him elected. Ultimately it backfired and put him out of a job. If you are prepared to put it into your manifesto you have to take it on the chin when it all goes to shit.

You play with fire...

We could all be winners? Truth is Brexit gives winners AND losers, most people don't even know which they are yet. Lots of sad faces expected in Wales when they realise EU funding was involved in projects there, and then UK gov doesn't make them good by filling the void. Brought it on themselves. It'll all be getting spent on the NHS instead eh?

[git-intae-thum]

Kincardine is a conflicted soul. Probably many like him.

He has still to decide if he is a nationalist or internationalist.

[The_Kincardine]

2 minutes ago, Black and White Tragic said:

Lots of sad faces expected in Wales when they realise EU funding was involved in projects there, and then UK gov doesn't make them good by filling the void. Brought it on themselves. It'll all be getting spent on the NHS instead eh?

aye...the fucking Welsh.  Join the egg-chasing thread, bud.  They are even more despised there than on the politics thread.

[The_Kincardine]

2 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

Kincardine is a conflicted soul. Probably many like him.

He has still to decide if he is a nationalist or internationalist.

Oh for sure I am conflicted - and have never denied it.  I'm a proud Scot been to Uni in London, lived here on and off for 30+ years and have weans who are half British and half Swedish who are also bilingual.  One was born in London and two in Edinburgh and none of them want to make the choice between being British, Scottish or European.

The default position of all in Kinky Heights is for one United Kingdom as an integral part of a European economy freely exchanging labour, capital, goods and services.  We all see any diminution of this as a compromise.  The only debate is where we want the compromise to occur.

[git-intae-thum]

49 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Oh for sure I am conflicted - and have never denied it.  I'm a proud Scot been to Uni in London, lived here on and off for 30+ years and have weans who are half British and half Swedish who are also bilingual.  One was born in London and two in Edinburgh and none of them want to make the choice between being British, Scottish or European.

The default position of all in Kinky Heights is for one United Kingdom as an integral part of a European economy freely exchanging labour, capital, goods and services.  We all see any diminution of this as a compromise.  The only debate is where we want the compromise to occur.

Quite. Then surely it is about ensuring  the easiest journey to that pan European....and onwards place.

Taking out the nationalism, ie the whole UK part, as obviously in these times that is the  biggest block, eases the passage.

Nationalism sucks.

[McSpreader]

5 hours ago, Black and White Tragic said:

You assume too much. I'm certainly not going to be drawn on giving credentials to debate on fitba forum. Yet you don't say why your opinion is superior to mine. Maybe you negotiate million dollar deals before breakfast. I don't know.

Noted that you are talking about lies from the remain campaign. There were lots of porkies being told on both sides which I didn't subscribe to and made up my own mind.

You say the government didn't ask for this?!

I'm calling Bullshit with a capital B. It was in the Tory manifesto. They got elected on it. If that's not asking for it?!

And the term "nationalists" is getting boring. A direct attempt to draw commonality with 1930s Germany. Twitter and Facebook is full of comparisons with Nazi symbols etc. Nearly every country on earth is independent, wanting to be the same as that is just normal, no?

Theresa May shoehorned it in, in PM questions the other day with Scottish National(ist) Party. There are two meanings to nationalist and most folk don't even realise it because it has been used so often in a derogatory sense. Westminster parties like the connotation that it can be construed in the other sense. Rather than those who believe in independence they are conflating with "A person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others." That is certainly not what the vast majority of pro Scottish independence supporters are, they just want to be equal rather than subservient (if TM can knock indyref2 on the head then that is exactly where we're at) to the democratic will of a significantly more populated country. Example: Brexit.

You also give credence to this with your subtle use of capitalisation in "Nationalists", like that is the name they give themselves, when it isn't.











 

The Tory Govt gave permission for the referendum because there has been a large, vociferous  constituency within the Tory party that were anti-EU for over a genertion. The fact that they officially campainged for Remain tells you they didn't ask for it. Those are facts . I'm not interested in conspiracy theories. Your capital B bullshit claim is debunked.

There is credence to the 'Nationalist' moniker but I accept that may not describe yourself. However, tht is who you are in bed with. I detest Nationalists. The idea that you form your political opinions based on which geographical co-ordinates your mother happened to be in when she squatted down and squirted you out is ridiculous. Unfortunately too many buy in to that because they are sheep in human form. Nationalists, of which there are many on this forum, are prejudiced, blinkered and exclusivists at best....racist even fascist/stalinist at worst. They certainly are not democrats.

I don't believe Indyref has been knocked on the head. It has been put back. Sturgeon's position is completely contrived and based on false grievance. Any reasonably intelligent person can see that so if you buy in to it it's because it suits your  inherent prejudice.

The truth of the UK is not the conflict between Scottish /English/UK interests but between people who are  higher educated, mobile and have opportunities and those who are tied to their jobs and local communities through poor qualifications and  a lack of opportunities. The latter are badly affected by globalisation and free movement of cheap labour whereas for the former it represents greater opportunities. If we can resolve that by limiting the impact of immigration ( by only allowing those in we need) on  people who are more tied in to their locality we can solve the antipathy towards immigration. Put yourself in the shoes of an uneducated factory worker or low skilled construction/health worker  and thnk about the impact of mass unfettered immigration imposed by unelected bureaucrats hundreds of miles away in a foreign capital that has seen your wages suppressed , your opportunity for upskilling removed and your local services flooded with foreigners. That's why we have Brexit. A large portion of the UK population have been ignored, sidelined and disparaged for far too long.......and they bit back!!! Fair fucking play to them !

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Next time just type "I hate pakis" and it'll save all us all time, Heinrich.

Harsh

But fair

[DeeTillEhDeh]

aye...the fucking Welsh.  Join the egg-chasing thread, bud.  They are even more despised there than on the politics thread.

80 minute nationalists IMHO.

[emoji48]

[sergie's no1 fan]

I don't get this oh i feel European thing, don't really care for that. I feel Scottish and that's it.

[mjw]

The idea that you form your political opinions based on which geographical co-ordinates your mother happened to be in when she squatted down and squirted you out is ridiculous.

If ever there was a disgusting line that summed up a poster,this is yours.

 

 

 

[Hillonearth]

5 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

aye...the fucking Welsh.  Join the egg-chasing thread, bud.  They are even more despised there than on the politics thread.

They seem to be in a different headspace than we are - I work beside a Welsh lassie and after the referendum 2.0 vote we got talking about potential independence, but when I said it might be them asking for it next, it was interesting that she trotted out the same "oh, we're too small to be independent" initial arguments that have been fed to us. When I mentioned Wales has the same population as say, Slovenia, it was clear the concept had never really crossed her mind before in any meaningful way.

I reckon their issue is they've been thoroughly absorbed into Greater England a lot longer than us - Owain Glyndwr's revolt in 1400-odd was their last real bid for independence, whereas out of our 300 years as part of the UK, we kicked back against it for the first 30-40 years and have been kicking back once more at least since the early 70s.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

They seem to be in a different headspace than we are - I work beside a Welsh lassie and after the referendum 2.0 vote we got talking about potential independence, but when I said it might be them asking for it next, it was interesting that she trotted out the same "oh, we're too small to be independent" initial arguments that have been fed to us. When I mentioned Wales has the same population as say, Slovenia, it was clear the concept had never really crossed her mind before in any meaningful way.
I reckon their issue is they've been thoroughly absorbed into Greater England a lot longer than us - Owain Glyndwr's revolt in 1400-odd was their last real bid for independence, whereas out of our 300 years as part of the UK, we kicked back against it for the first 30-40 years and have been kicking back once more at least since the early 70s.

There's also a notion that their national myths involve an earlier preanglosaxon British identity.

If you buy into that then they can't leave Britain but the English could

[DublinMagyar]

If ever there was a disgusting line that summed up a poster,this is yours.

 

 

 

Well there's that and "Poles can get tae f**k".

 

[Black and White Tragic]

The Tory Govt gave permission for the referendum because there has been a large, vociferous  constituency within the Tory party that were anti-EU for over a genertion. The fact that they officially campainged for Remain tells you they didn't ask for it. Those are facts . I'm not interested in conspiracy theories. Your capital B bullshit claim is debunked.
There is credence to the 'Nationalist' moniker but I accept that may not describe yourself. However, tht is who you are in bed with. I detest Nationalists. The idea that you form your political opinions based on which geographical co-ordinates your mother happened to be in when she squatted down and squirted you out is ridiculous. Unfortunately too many buy in to that because they are sheep in human form. Nationalists, of which there are many on this forum, are prejudiced, blinkered and exclusivists at best....racist even fascist/stalinist at worst. They certainly are not democrats.
I don't believe Indyref has been knocked on the head. It has been put back. Sturgeon's position is completely contrived and based on false grievance. Any reasonably intelligent person can see that so if you buy in to it it's because it suits your  inherent prejudice.
The truth of the UK is not the conflict between Scottish /English/UK interests but between people who are  higher educated, mobile and have opportunities and those who are tied to their jobs and local communities through poor qualifications and  a lack of opportunities. The latter are badly affected by globalisation and free movement of cheap labour whereas for the former it represents greater opportunities. If we can resolve that by limiting the impact of immigration ( by only allowing those in we need) on  people who are more tied in to their locality we can solve the antipathy towards immigration. Put yourself in the shoes of an uneducated factory worker or low skilled construction/health worker  and thnk about the impact of mass unfettered immigration imposed by unelected bureaucrats hundreds of miles away in a foreign capital that has seen your wages suppressed , your opportunity for upskilling removed and your local services flooded with foreigners. That's why we have Brexit. A large portion of the UK population have been ignored, sidelined and disparaged for far too long.......and they bit back!!! Fair fucking play to them !

^^^^poor April Fools?

I give up.

Just because you say it is debunked, doesn't make it so.

In your head you've got a lot of prejudice going on which is shaping your way that you see the world. It's pretty sad that you come across as small minded idiot when I think you are trying to portray you are someone of great insight and who's views demand respect.

Scotland's people have benefitted greatly from the ability to emigrate, and have welcomed people from around the world too. Just because you lack skills when you migrate, doesn't make you less of a human being, you seek opportunity that you may not have in your own country. Someone close to me is related to a Scot who emigrated with his parents, a weaver and the proprietor of a sweetie shop. Not high skilled migrants I think you would agree. They sought a better life in the US. He grew up to become a steel magnate and one of the richest (if not the richest) men on the planet. A Bill Gates of his time, he then distributed his wealth into trusts to benefit mankind and advocate world peace. The US benefitted and so did the UK from his philanthropy. So maybe you should reassess what migration is about.

So no, I don't have political views based on where my mother "squatted down and squirted you out" as you so crudely put it. In fact that couldn't be further from the truth.

Immigration forces the indigenous population to up their game, whilst we can look after those who are not able to via the welfare state. It is not a race to the bottom as the anti immigration folk will argue.

[madwullie]

I stayed in peebles hydro last night. About half the staff here are eu migrants. I guess they stole these jobs from British people who were desperate for low paid waitressing and cleaning jobs in the back arse of nowhere. 

[WILLIEA]

17 minutes ago, madwullie said:

I stayed in peebles hydro last night. About half the staff here are eu migrants. I guess they stole these jobs from British people who were desperate for low paid waitressing and cleaning jobs in the back arse of nowhere. 

Hospitality industry in this country will be well and truly shafted by this madness.

[Alan Stubbs]

2 hours ago, McSpreader said:

The Tory Govt gave permission for the referendum because there has been a large, vociferous  constituency within the Tory party that were anti-EU for over a genertion. The fact that they officially campainged for Remain tells you they didn't ask for it. Those are facts . I'm not interested in conspiracy theories. Your capital B bullshit claim is debunked.

There is credence to the 'Nationalist' moniker but I accept that may not describe yourself. However, tht is who you are in bed with. I detest Nationalists. The idea that you form your political opinions based on which geographical co-ordinates your mother happened to be in when she squatted down and squirted you out is ridiculous. Unfortunately too many buy in to that because they are sheep in human form. Nationalists, of which there are many on this forum, are prejudiced, blinkered and exclusivists at best....racist even fascist/stalinist at worst. They certainly are not democrats.

I don't believe Indyref has been knocked on the head. It has been put back. Sturgeon's position is completely contrived and based on false grievance. Any reasonably intelligent person can see that so if you buy in to it it's because it suits your  inherent prejudice.

The truth of the UK is not the conflict between Scottish /English/UK interests but between people who are  higher educated, mobile and have opportunities and those who are tied to their jobs and local communities through poor qualifications and  a lack of opportunities. The latter are badly affected by globalisation and free movement of cheap labour whereas for the former it represents greater opportunities. If we can resolve that by limiting the impact of immigration ( by only allowing those in we need) on  people who are more tied in to their locality we can solve the antipathy towards immigration. Put yourself in the shoes of an uneducated factory worker or low skilled construction/health worker  and thnk about the impact of mass unfettered immigration imposed by unelected bureaucrats hundreds of miles away in a foreign capital that has seen your wages suppressed , your opportunity for upskilling removed and your local services flooded with foreigners. That's why we have Brexit. A large portion of the UK population have been ignored, sidelined and disparaged for far too long.......and they bit back!!! Fair fucking play to them !

Britain isn't alone in experiencing globalisation. In the European context, confidence in the EU is on the rise amongst the struggling southern countries and the supposed successors to the Brexit/Trump populism hype train all look like busted flushes in the West. I would agree that globalisation has had its winners and losers so far but the question is why it's led Britain towards a stop the world reaction that we aren't seeing in comparitive neighbouring countries.

A small part of that will be the fact that Brexit is a bit of an off-putting laughing stock already but the bigger reason imo, is that Britain's economic strategy for decades (or perhaps lack there of) has been asking for this to happen. Almost entirely capital-generated growth; brokered in an unhealthily small portion of the country; with welfare dependency and consumer debt keeping large ex-industrial swathes of the island on life support. Doesn't really do much for Dave from Barnsley 

I would sympathise with the people who have felt the need to "bite back" if I didn't feel they were massively shooting themselves in the foot.

Other major countries have used globalisation to their advantage and not just in financial services but to the benefit of industries across their land. If I was one of the people you're describing, I'd be wondering why my standard of living and opportunities to improve them are so bleak in comparison to a similar person from one of the European project's many success stories. A completely unrestricted Conservative Britain probably wouldn't be my idea of a solution.

It should be no surprise that all the chat about "listening to the forgotten communities" has already been pushed aside for talk of tax havens and deregulation. The biggest losers from Brexit is going to be its voters.