When will indyref2 happen?

[git-intae-thum]

3 minutes ago, weegienative said:

Who cares if he was Tory or Labour ffs? Stop being an SNP parrot. 

Of course the statement is not true. The sheer motivation behind the defeat of the Nazis was national pride. Being a proud citizen of a nation is not a bad thing. Why have you allowed yourself to be manipulated by propaganda as to think this is a bad thing?

I was quite happy being a citizen of Europe.

To attempt to equate the current gripes of British nationalists against the modern EU, with horror endured by multiple peoples to defeat the Nazi's 70 odd years ago.......is knuckle biting stuff. Cringing fur ye.

It is in a different direction we must look to find the current generation of proto fascists to defeat.

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, weegienative said:

I wasn't trying to have a dig with the game theory thing, a lot of people won't have heard of it. May has played this completely wrong.

Do we trade with the US? How is this possible? We aren't in a federal union losing our sovereignty. 

Trade with the EU is mutually beneficial and will continue to exist regardless of Brexit. High tariffs would punish German exports (as an example) as much as they would ours.

But I'll put this to you, what is the future for this country if a democratic referendum isn't respected? What next? Do we do away with all votes? Do we just rely on those in high places telling the little people what's good for them? 

I don't think those calling for a second referendum quite grasp the consequences if this were to happen.

 

As you said falsely, we can vote out Governments who don't turn out how we wanted every 4 years. (it's 5) If we were fed a total load of shite about a referendum how long should we little people get to change our minds? 

[weegienative]

7 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

I was quite happy being a citizen of Europe.

To attempt to equate the current gripes of British nationalists against the modern EU, with horror endured by multiple peoples to defeat the Nazi's 70 odd years ago.......is knuckle biting stuff. Cringing fur ye.

It is in a different direction we must look to find the current generation of proto fascists to defeat.

Why are you cringing? Because you can't answer the point?

I know what we should do to tackle the "facism" (I doubt you even know the meaning if you're using it in this context), we should hand more power over to governments. That's always worked out well in the past....

[weegienative]

7 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

As you said falsely, we can vote out Governments who don't turn out how we wanted every 4 years. (it's 5) If we were fed a total load of shite about a referendum how long should we little people get to change our minds? 

5 years. Correct. I'm currently in the US and have been watching too much US news:D

Well Considering those who voted to join all the EU all those years ago were fed a load of shite and only just got the chance (those of them still alive) to reverse their decision, I would say it's only fair it's actually deployed before certain factions try to tell others what's best for them, don't you?

Incidentally, you have no idea if you were fed a load of shite or not. Brexit hasn't happened yet so everything is speculation and guesswork.

[git-intae-thum]

18 minutes ago, weegienative said:

Why are you cringing? Because you can't answer the point?

I know what we should do to tackle the "facism" (I doubt you even know the meaning if you're using it in this context), we should hand more power over to governments. That's always worked out well in the past....

I think the term "proto fascist" defines the current Tommy Robinsonites and various other britnat brexiteer groups that are currently on the rise, quite succintly.

We are again seeing the rise of nasty nationalism in Europe, with England being one of the hotbeds. The past is evidence that this proto form can quickly develop into full blown fascism.

Folk like you are genuinely scary. When you no longer have the EU to blame...who is next.

[weegienative]

7 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

I think the term "proto fascist" defines the current Tommy Robinsonites and various other britnat brexiteer groups that are currently on the rise, quite succintly.

We are again seeing the rise of nasty nationalism in Europe, with England being one of the hotbeds. The past is evidence that this proto form can quickly develop into full blown fascism.

Folk like you are genuinely scary. When you no longer have the EU to blame...who is next.

It's always useful to create a straw man argument when your initial one holds no water.

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarianone-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.^[14] Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.

what sounds more like fascism? My wish for small government and the people to have a say in our governance OR your wish to hand over power to the EU?

The levels of delusion over this issue are quite scary.

[The_Kincardine]

11 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

I think the term "proto fascist" defines the current Tommy Robinsonites and various other britnat brexiteer groups that are currently on the rise, quite succintly.

We are again seeing the rise of nasty nationalism in Europe, with England being one of the hotbeds.

Scotland, Shirly?  Ok I know that the nationalist movement in Scotland got its arse felt...but there has been absolutely English equivalent.

[git-intae-thum]

17 minutes ago, weegienative said:

It's always useful to create a straw man argument when your initial one holds no water.

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarianone-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.^[14] Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.

what sounds more like fascism? My wish for small government and the people to have a say in our governance OR your wish to hand over power to the EU?

The levels of delusion over this issue are quite scary.

Interesting.....I will ignore the ludicrous  attempts to portray the EU as a growing fascist state in the making. Thats tin foil hat stuff.

However your argument in the 2nd half about the people of a state having a strong say in their governance has real merit.

Contrast:

In the EU all major policy positions have to be unanimously agreed by all member states.....be it small Luxembourg or big Germany...before enactment.

In the UK, we are leaving the European union against the overwhelming will of the people of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar.

Good union? Bad union?

[RedRob72]

I wasn't trying to have a dig with the game theory thing, a lot of people won't have heard of it. May has played this completely wrong. Do we trade with the US? How is this possible? We aren't in a federal union losing our sovereignty. 

Trade with the EU is mutually beneficial and will continue to exist regardless of Brexit. High tariffs would punish German exports (as an example) as much as they would ours.

But I'll put this to you, what is the future for this country if a democratic referendum isn't respected? What next? Do we do away with all votes? Do we just rely on those in high places telling the little people what's good for them? 

I don't think those calling for a second referendum quite grasp the consequences if this were to happen.

 

 

We continue to have a huge trade deficit with the EU who still account for almost 45% of our total export market, it makes no sense whatsoever to have expensive and fragmented tariff arrangements with each separate member. Outside the EU, Trade arrangements on ‘services’ on which we are increasingly reliant are unpredictable and difficult to manage. Why the urgency to disrupt an arrangement that has help to transform the UK economy in terms of employment, inward investment, efficiency and competitiveness? Walking away without any future agreement in place, would be reckless and irresponsible for any administration.

Yes there’s still much to challenge, in how the EU operates but I feel we have a much better chance of tackling that, by working & influencing from within, rather than just shouting over the garden fence.

I, and millions of others don’t believe that an accurate picture was given on either side of the debate leading up to the Ref, with many of the claims and promises since proven as false and hollow. It would be undemocratic NOT to review that decision now, and certainly not acting in the best interests of the Country. We simply can’t get this wrong, a 2nd Ref is an extraordinary special measure given the circumstances on this vote alone.

You didn’t respond to my second point, of how dragging Scotland & Northern Ireland out of the EU against their will, shall provide much additional leverage to those who seek to break from the U.K. but perhaps that doesn’t concern you? If that is the case, then fair enough.

 

 

[NotThePars]

Has someone decided to flex their intellectual muscles by quoting directly from wikipedia? 🤭

[Detournement]

7 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

Why the urgency to disrupt an arrangement that has help to transform the UK economy in terms of employment, inward investment, efficiency and competitiveness? Walking away without any future agreement in place, would be reckless and irresponsible for any administration.

 

 

Whit? We had full employment before we entered the EU and now we have structural unemployment and precarious terms and conditions.

As for efficiency our productivity is terrible.

[Ira Gaines]

Oh great. Tedi has brought his troll job here.

[RedRob72]

Whit? We had full employment before we entered the EU and now we have structural unemployment and precarious terms and conditions.
As for efficiency our productivity is terrible.

In what sort of state was Britain’s economy, before it joined the EEC?

[git-intae-thum]

Bankrupt. Emergency bail outs from the world bank, planned power cuts etc.

Them were the good auld days......according to the Brexit mob.

[Jeff Venom]

Game theory though folks. Look it up, you've probably not heard of it 🤷🏻‍♂️

[RedRob72]

Bankrupt. Emergency bail outs from the world bank, planned power cuts etc.
Them were the good auld days......according to the Brexit mob.

Indeed, the U.K. has seen a solid record of growth and inward investment over the time span of its EU membership, and is still the leading recipient, in attracting Venture Capital funding across Europe. (according to KPMG), despite the uncertainty of Brexit.
Why make this more difficult for ourselves, as a ‘Business’ it’s a crazy move.

[NotThePars]

Game theory though folks. Look it up, you've probably not heard of it 🤷🏻‍♂️

Can’t think of game theory without thinking of this dude and his “legendary” tweet storm about it.

[new kyd in town]

I thought this topic was about when the next sepref will not be called.

[RedRob72]

I thought this topic was about when the next sepref will not be called.

Aye, you’re probably right, it has spilled over a wee bit from the EU/Brexit thread, but ultimately it will still have a significant bearing on a 2nd Indy Ref (if and when that happens) if Scotland has been dragged out of the EU and suffered as a consequence.
It becomes an open goal and an easy tap in for the YES movement.

[new kyd in town]

29 minutes ago, RedRob72 said:

Aye, you’re probably right, it has spilled over a wee bit from the EU/Brexit thread, but ultimately it will still have a significant bearing on a 2nd Indy Ref (if and when that happens) if Scotland has been dragged out of the EU and suffered as a consequence.
It becomes an open goal and an easy tap in for the YES movement.

1

Even though Scotland voted in favour of the EU I think that is down to the Scottish - mainly Labour & snp voters - affinity for subsidies. There is still no legal route for sepref2 until a section 30 order. The English subsidy is big medicine to Scot Labour. Even the UKtoEUtoUK backhander is big medicine to the natprat tendency. Most normal Scots will still side with the UK. The docile Scot will not be so easily led this time. Remember the natprats don’t have the stars aligned, unlike the generational sepref.