When will indyref2 happen?

[renton]

6 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

The idea of a seamless route to Remaining in the EU through Indy is a dream.Nobody but the converted is buying it.

It doesn't have to be seamless, it just has to be joined up. realpolitik will trump every other consideration, and there are a number of halfway houses and schemes that the interested parties could sign up to to filter Scotland in, without removing it's free market privileges even if the official joining date is post Brexit, it does require a show of intent however. And there is a feedback loop between having the vote and guarenteeing continued EU membership - to move folk yes probably requires on balance that the EU willl accept Scotland's continued access, and that continued access requires that Scotland show itself moving towards a self determining path in the first place.

Edited October 27, 2016 by renton

[speckled tangerine]

2 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

The idea of a seamless route to remaining in the EU through Indy is a dream.Nobody but the converted is buying it.

It won't be seamless. Far from it.

Ukplc will be scorch earthing any entry into the EU for an indy Scotland before the UK finally fucks off. Thankfully, the EU is equally as pragmatic as May, prior to her Macbeth-esque quest for power. 

The EU would absolutely welcome an independent Scotland. The question is would that be on continuing terms or a new member? I see the Scot Gov has opened up an ersatz "embassy" in Berlin. With guys like David McAllister close to power you'd be an idiot to think we wouldn't be in.

[Loondave1]

It's a fact which has been mooted by the head of the European council actually. 

 

 

As for English people living in Scotland I think you'll find its them who espouse the type of nationalism you refer to not me,  since in most cases they voted no because they're English. A statistician would tell you it's literally impossible they could have just Been that much more convinced by the arguments of no than any other group.  They're ethnic nationalists practising identity politics. 

 

I'm just stating the simple facts of the matter.

 

"They voted no because their English" "They're ethnic Nationalists" and the bit about what a statistician could tell was literally impossible about reasons for voting NO. Nazi pseudo science here we come.

[Peppino Impastato]

No simple facts which you refuse to accept. 

[RedRob72]

The biggest threat to yes is the 45 thousand English people who move to Scotland every year.   Say whatever you want those are the facts.

Honestly mate, you do talk some amount of Shite, my wife's English, she's lived and worked here for 30 years, all 3 kids born and raised in Scotland, but naturally have a huge affinity with their relations down south and their Grandparents in Northern Ireland! You sound like Scotland's Nigel Farage sometimes!

[Peppino Impastato]

You make no point whatsoever.   It's a simple fact that 85% of English people who live here voted no last time and 45 thousand English people move here every years.   Those two things are just facts.

 

 

WHICH means statistically the not vote increases by about 500 per week.   Just a fact,  making them statistically the biggest threat to a successful yes campaign.   If you find facts unpalatable I pity you, but in your case I did already. 

[1320Lichtie]

Honestly mate, you do talk some amount of Shite, my wife's English, she's lived and worked here for 30 years, all 3 kids born and raised in Scotland, but naturally have a huge affinity with their relations down south and their Grandparents in Northern Ireland!

[Redstarstranraer]

There's no reason why English people living in Scotland can't be persuaded to vote for independence; the research may indicate most voted no last time around but of the English people I know (where I know how they voted) it was actually about a 50/50 split for and against.  In the current political context I would expect a good number of those English people who live in Scotland to seriously consider a yes vote especially given it may be a choice between a putative 'little England' style Tory regime and Scotland as part of the EU.  Certainly many of the more left-leaning/liberal English voters up here might be keener to live in a Scotland they saw as open to the world and part of the broader EU community than an apparently insular, xenophobic post-Brexit Britain.

In any case Yes campaigners ought to be targeting these people (like no voters in general) and persuading them of the merits of independence.  Criticising them or attempting to single them out as the 'problem' will not only do nothing to secure their votes but also put off Scots who aren't keen on ethnic nationalism.  If English people want to come up here and contribute to Scotland then we should welcome them as much as anyone from anywhere else in the world.  Hopefully they will come to see the merits of an independent Scotland as readily as Scots if the arguments are made clearly and convincingly.

If we get another referendum I'll be doing my best to persuade the English folk I know as much as the Scots anyway.

[Loondave1]

You make no point whatsoever.   It's a simple fact that 85% of English people who live here voted no last time and 45 thousand English people move here every years.   Those two things are just facts.

 

 

WHICH means statistically the not vote increases by about 500 per week.   Just a fact,  making them statistically the biggest threat to a successful yes campaign.   If you find facts unpalatable I pity you, but in your case I did already. 

Ah ! The enemy within.We did not lose fairly we were stabbed in the back by one section of our society "The English" on this occasion.They have become a problem these English migrants coming here and exercising their right to vote inappropriately.Way to go Adolf.Nationalism at its best once you get past the veneer of "civic" Nationalism.

[Peppino Impastato]

Deluded britnat nonsensenonsense from a complete imbecile.

 

 

Red star nice sentiment but hopelessly naive. 

[Crossbill]

It's just a small step from pointing out facts to invading Poland.

[Loondave1]

Deluded britnat nonsensenonsense from a complete imbecile.

 

 

Red star nice sentiment but hopelessly naive. 

Notice the silence from anyone defending your position ??
There is an imbecile involved here but you need to look closer to home Adolf.

[Antlion]

4 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

None of us really believed the shock of the EU Ref was really going to happen, but it did. We're better off trying to shake this shit off together,than dividing even further!

Absolute nonsense. "Shaking this shit off together" means being divided from Europe at the behest of England and Wales. "No thanks".

[Antlion]

50 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

Ah ! The enemy within.We did not lose fairly we were stabbed in the back by one section of our society "The English" on this occasion.They have become a problem these English migrants coming here and exercising their right to vote inappropriately.Way to go Adolf.Nationalism at its best once you get past the veneer of "civic" Nationalism.

Didn't Adolf Hitler want his nation of birth absorbed into a superstate with neighbouring nations, with all controlled from the largest and most powerful? Didn't he prize a Germanic national identity over his Austrian one?

That doesn't sound like Scottish nationalism to me, but rather UK nationalism.

[AUFC90]

Sturgeon says rUK can't drag us out of the EU with a 52-48 spilt, but it's Ok to drag us out of the UK with a 55-45 split, how does that work?

How can Scotland be DRAGGED out the UK when the only way that can happen is if Scotland votes for it by way of majority ? Another unionist that doesn't understand democracy.

[Loondave1]

It's just a small step from pointing out facts to invading Poland.

"Facts" [emoji23][emoji23]

[Loondave1]

Didn't Adolf Hitler want his nation of birth absorbed into a superstate with neighbouring nations, with all controlled from the largest and most powerful? Didn't he prize a Germanic national identity over his Austrian one?

That doesn't sound like Scottish nationalism to me, but rather UK nationalism.

He was welcomed into Austria by his kinfolk so its not much of an analogy.But lets not get away from the fact Pep thinks of English migrants as the "enemy within" for not as "scientifically proven" or some such, supporting his viewpoint.Hes not keen on English people especially those settling in Scotland.A racist basically hiding behind Independence.

[Ira Gaines]

Why are the Nazis getting brought into this again btw?

[Alan Stubbs]

44 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

Notice the silence from anyone defending your position ??
There is an imbecile involved here but you need to look closer to home Adolf.

I've had my disagreements with him but what's been said here in absolutely no way lives up to the words you're putting in his mouth and the hysterical faux-outrage from yourself and Rob.

It was pointed out that new younger voters and perhaps a switch in the voting intentions of EU nationals could benefit the Yes vote. He is correctly pointing out that English people moving here, who studies have shown to be in the extreme majority No voters, is an offsetting factor in terms of Yes's chances in the future. Those are indeed facts. His assertion that they all vote that way because of nationalistic reasons is an opinion but given Rob immediately backed it up by saying his Englsih wife voted No for nationalistic reasons, it's hardly the biggest slander of the century. Certainly, nobody's apart from yourself is going on about the "enemy within" or any such hysterical pish.

Incidentally, I'm in favour of the residency rule for these things. Including rUKers who will vote 80-90% against is a disadvantage to the Yes side but that's something that has to be factored in and accepted for the sake of giving the people who live here a free choice on our future. Shame the UK Government weren't so open-minded with their Refendum,

[mjw]

Nazis and North Korea.