bob the tank Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Welcome back granny d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Welcome back granny d Ditto. It's at the point where folk start enquiring after his health whenever he goes missing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Wasn't the VAT status of Police Scotland connected to the fact it is a central government entity and not a local authority-based one? VAT recovery in England for policing activities is done through local authority areas not the Home Office. Whatever the fairness of that rule, it seems to me to be another example of why a reform of the police, cited as a money-saving project, wasn't properly thought through by the Scottish Government before implementation. It absolutely was thought through - centralising the police force would save £90m so the payment of £30m in VAT would make it still worthwhile. Incidentally we should be asking why the NI police force doesn't pay VAT while the Scottish one does. The answer is sheer petty politics, if it helps. Not sure what "VAT recovery in England for policing activities is done through local authority areas not the Home Office." means, VAT recovery is through HMRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I have no idea. Not being a Tory, however, and having been a member of a party that went into the 2011 election against a single police force, having pointed out, among other things, that under current VAT rules it would be deemed to be a central government agency ineligible to reclaim VAT, the question is somewhat academic. The SNP went into this with their eyes wide open. They told us Police Scotland would save money. Instead it added a burden of failed VAT reclaim and started spunking tens of millions of pounds to consultancy firms like Accenture to build a new IT system that doesn't work. Can you tell us just how many "tens of millions of pounds" has been spunked on firms "like Accenture"? On the upside, crime in Scotland is at a 41 year low, so Police Scotland can't be too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 It absolutely was thought through - centralising the police force would save £90m so the payment of £30m in VAT would make it still worthwhile. Incidentally we should be asking why the NI police force doesn't pay VAT while the Scottish one does. The answer is sheer petty politics, if it helps. Not sure what "VAT recovery in England for policing activities is done through local authority areas not the Home Office." means, VAT recovery is through HMRC. 1. The savings were disputed and aren't materialising.2. PSNI isn't structured the same way as PS 3. Of course VAT recovery is from HMRC. I'm talking about who asks for the VAT back. Police bodies do it through organisations funded by and accountable to local authorities, not central government departments. The Home Office would be the relevant government department of policing in England moved towards a unitary structure like the SNP reforms in Scotland. Can you tell us just how many "tens of millions of pounds" has been spunked on firms "like Accenture"? On the upside, crime in Scotland is at a 41 year low, so Police Scotland can't be too bad. £60 million on an IT contract already, and it's about 18 months behind schedule. Crime almost everywhere is falling across the developed Western world. That's not an achievement. Nor is it the only measure of good policing. Methods also matter. Which is why Police Scotland's use of stop and search and firearms should make us all angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Can you tell us just how many "tens of millions of pounds" has been spunked on firms "like Accenture"? On the upside, crime in Scotland is at a 41 year low, so Police Scotland can't be too bad. Fide, crime across the UK is down. Oh, no, hang on, that's "reported crime". Quite a different animal. Other than getting an incident number for insurance claims, how many of us have faith that any action will be taken as a result of vandalism, assaults, intimidation, or any number of perceived low-level crimes? As for Private Contractors in Public Service, Amey have just quoted for a repeat of a job at my work. The cost last year was fifty grand. Under the more efficient contract signed with Amey, the identical job has been quoted at over two hundred grand. Lean, mean, and showing the Public Sector how it's done. My arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 1. The savings were disputed and aren't materialising. 2. PSNI isn't structured the same way as PS 3. Of course VAT recovery is from HMRC. I'm talking about who asks for the VAT back. Police bodies do it through organisations funded by and accountable to local authorities, not central government departments. The Home Office would be the relevant government department of policing in England moved towards a unitary structure like the SNP reforms in Scotland. £60 million on an IT contract already, and it's about 18 months behind schedule. Crime almost everywhere is falling across the developed Western world. That's not an achievement. Nor is it the only measure of good policing. Methods also matter. Which is why Police Scotland's use of stop and search and firearms should make us all angry. Is crime "almost everywhere" at a 41 year low? Would you not say that crime prevention and detection are a police force's main raison d'etre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 1. The savings were disputed and aren't materialising. 2. PSNI isn't structured the same way as PS You'll be able to explain how the NI police force claim their VAT back, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Is crime "almost everywhere" at a 41 year low? Would you not say that crime prevention and detection are a police force's main raison d'etre? No, the police force's primary purpose is to uphold the liberty of all civilians. You'll be able to explain how the NI police force claim their VAT back, then. My understanding of PSNI is that it is organised and funded through local authorities, unlike Police Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 My understanding of PSNI is that it is organised and funded through local authorities, unlike Police Scotland. Can you find any evidence of that? I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 £60 million on an IT contract already, and it's about 18 months behind schedule. Supposed to roll out in December, apparently. Meanwhile: "The roll-out of the new system is being closely scrutinised after a project with the similar aim of creating a common platform initiated by the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland in 2006 failed to deliver its objectives and was closed down in 2012. Final costs of that project were estimated to be £8.7m." Remind me, who was in charge in 2006 and achieved precisely nothing despite spending £8.7m? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Can you find any evidence of that? I can't. Here is a good explanation why PSNI is different https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2015/10/29/police-scotland-overspending-and-vat/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Snpbad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hang on a minute. I thought Police forces in England were funded by local authorities. BBC Article that has me questioning this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hang on a minute. I thought Police forces in England were funded by local authorities. BBC Article that has me questioning this. It's allocated to police forces through local authority budgets. It's not complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It's allocated to police forces through local authority budgets. It's not complicated. So do the authorities have to pass whatever the home office determines to each force? If this is the case then there can be no doubt that control rests with the home office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Interesting article here http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/police-funding No local authority control over provision of service. The PCC now bears this responsibility. In addition, Police Authorities received grants from the Home Office, determined on the basis of the specific needs of their areas. The Home Secretary issued an overall police strategy and Police Authorities were provided with funding broadly to pay for meeting the strategy's objectives. The Police and Magistrates' Courts Act 1994 increased the Home Office's control of Police Authority activity by imposing a statutory requirement to publish a local policing plan, with details of objectives and targets for the coming year, which had to be consistent with the Home Secretary's 'Ministerial Priorities'. Doesn't sound much like devolved responsibility. In fact local authortity contributions account for only 25% It's allocated to police forces through local authority budgets. It's not complicated. It is obviously more complicated than you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Interesting article here http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/police-funding No local authority control over provision of service. The PCC now bears this responsibility. Doesn't sound much like devolved responsibility. In fact local authortity contributions account for only 25% It is obviously more complicated than you think. coppers and pounds.jpg As opposed to the Scottish case where local authority contributions account for 0% of Police Scotland's budget. This is why it is treated differently under the old VAT rules about recovery of VAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 As opposed to the Scottish case where local authority contributions account for 0% of Police Scotland's budget. This is why it is treated differently under the old VAT rules about recovery of VAT. According to the VAT Rules, a body that merely obtains funding from an LA is not a public body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob the tank Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 The committee stage of the EVEL bill is coming up on BBC parliament in a minute or two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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