54_and_counting Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 As much as it was tge Georgia result that cost us, what evidence is there that we should be beating them in Georgia anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 As much as it was tge Georgia result that cost us, what evidence is there that we should be beating them in Georgia anyway The fact that Georgia have only been capable of beating part-time no marks apart from good old Scotland in the last 10 years points strongly towards us under-performing there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 As much as it was tge Georgia result that cost us, what evidence is there that we should be beating them in Georgia anyway Oh, come off it. In the eight years between their two wins over us, Georgia played 35 competitive games and won four of them, with nine draws and 22 defeats. The likes of Finland, Latvia and Lithuania have won in Georgia, while they've never finished higher than fifth in a group and on top of those home defeats they've lost in Cyprus (while finishing sixth below them) and drawn in Malta. Trying to argue that failing to win in Georgia is anything other than a disastrous result is utterly preposterous. They are minnows and our two defeats there are among the worst results in our history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 If Georgia are minnows compared to us, how would you describe scotlands stance currently in football compared to say germany and poland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 If Georgia are minnows compared to us, how would you describe scotlands stance currently in football compared to say germany and poland Lesser, but not minnows. What's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Oh, come off it. In the eight years between their two wins over us, Georgia played 35 competitive games and won four of them, with nine draws and 22 defeats. The likes of Finland, Latvia and Lithuania have won in Georgia, while they've never finished higher than fifth in a group and on top of those home defeats they've lost in Cyprus (while finishing sixth below them) and drawn in Malta. Trying to argue that failing to win in Georgia is anything other than a disastrous result is utterly preposterous. They are minnows and our two defeats there are among the worst results in our history. Indeed. Out of interest, who were the four victories over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Lesser, but not minnows. What's your point? my point is, strachan did well to get 2 points from poland given their obvious better than us, but he gets lambasted for not winning either game we cant have it both ways, we cant expect to beat teams ranked below us, and then rip into the gaffer for teams above us doing the same to us as for us not being minnows, how many tournaments do we need to miss before we become minnows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 my point is, strachan did well to get 2 points from poland given their obvious better than us, but he gets lambasted for not winning either game we cant have it both ways, we cant expect to beat teams ranked below us, and then rip into the gaffer for teams above us doing the same to us. as for us not being minnows, how many tournaments do we need to miss before we become minnows We need to become a tiny football nation without any pedigree or footballing history to become a genuine minnow. There are such countries, like the Faroes or San Marino. We're not among them or yet close. I'm not saying that such a thing is forever inconceivable, but it's daft to claim that that's our current berth in order to let people off the hook. Anyway, I thought we'd stopped arguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Anyway, I thought we'd stopped arguing. you started again anyway its a discussion and an enjoyable one at that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Indeed. Out of interest, who were the four victories over? Malta, Croatia, Belarus and Gibraltar. Croatia at least means we're not the only non-minnow to have slipped up there, but it's still utterly humiliating for any middling nation to lose there. my point is, strachan did well to get 2 points from poland given their obvious better than us, but he gets lambasted for not winning either game we cant have it both ways, we cant expect to beat teams ranked below us, and then rip into the gaffer for teams above us doing the same to us as for us not being minnows, how many tournaments do we need to miss before we become minnows There's a difference between not being good enough to qualify and being a perennial bottom two side who never even threaten to qualify and win less than a fifth of your games over a decade. We're mediocre at best, but we're far from being minnows. Expecting to beat inferior teams and sneak results against superior sides is kind of the basis of success for average football teams. Ireland for example took maximum points from the minnows and took something against Germany, which meant that failing to beat us and Poland didn't matter. Again, I'm not saying we should be demanding Strachan's head for it because ultimately the failure was down to one game that went wrong, but I can't believe people are trying to argue that the campaign was anything other than a failure. Third place was a perfectly realistic target and we failed to get it because we lost to Georgia. There's no way that can be dressed up as anything other than a failure - losing to Georgia was a disaster and finishing fourth was a disaster. Three points was the minimum acceptable against Georgia, third place was the minimum acceptable in the group. It was in our hands and we didn't get it because of our own incompetence, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 but I can't believe people are trying to argue that the campaign was anything other than a failure. nobody is (well not the sane ones) after taking 4 points from 6 against ireland it should have been 3rd place, however what my argument is that we have made progress, we went from a group containing easier teams, but finishing less points to a harder group and finishing with more points its progress and given how scotland were going backwards for a few campaigns its good signs that we are at least moving forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 nobody is (well not the sane ones) after taking 4 points from 6 against ireland it should have been 3rd place, however what my argument is that we have made progress, we went from a group containing easier teams, but finishing less points to a harder group and finishing with more points its progress and given how scotland were going backwards for a few campaigns its good signs that we are at least moving forward Ok, discussion resumed. The argument about getting more points is kind of negated by the fact that we had the ultimate pub league team in our group. Six points were an absolute given for everyone, more so than would previously have been the case with any other "minnows" where there would be a genuine danger of dropping points. With Gibraltar in our group, that was simply not possible, even for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieD Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Oh, come off it. In the eight years between their two wins over us, Georgia played 35 competitive games and won four of them, with nine draws and 22 defeats. The likes of Finland, Latvia and Lithuania have won in Georgia, while they've never finished higher than fifth in a group and on top of those home defeats they've lost in Cyprus (while finishing sixth below them) and drawn in Malta. Trying to argue that failing to win in Georgia is anything other than a disastrous result is utterly preposterous. They are minnows and our two defeats there are among the worst results in our history. Playing Devils Advocate, Ireland pretty much got played off the park by them over there and only won in the last minute with a McGeady worldy. Just as tight at home too. And Poland were tight with them 1-0 until injury time at home and then Lewandowski scored up and battered a hat trick in 3 minutes. Germany needed a win in the last game to win the group and didn't walk through them. They aren't whipping boys like the San Marino's of the world. But we should have done a lot better in Tbilisi though. People are talking like we are something decent. Some people really have forgotten how shite we were under Levein. He took the team backwards to the levels of Georgia. We were seeded 4th for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Ok, discussion resumed. The argument about getting more points is kind of negated by the fact that we had the ultimate pub league team in our group. Six points were an absolute given for everyone, more so than would previously have been the case with any other "minnows" where there would be a genuine danger of dropping points. With Gibraltar in our group, that was simply not possible, even for us. true, however we didnt take full points from the mighty lithuania when we had them in our group, and tbh i cannot remember the last time scotland took so many points from teams seeded above them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieD Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Ok, discussion resumed. The argument about getting more points is kind of negated by the fact that we had the ultimate pub league team in our group. Six points were an absolute given for everyone, more so than would previously have been the case with any other "minnows" where there would be a genuine danger of dropping points. With Gibraltar in our group, that was simply not possible, even for us. In the last Euro qualifiers, we had the management celebrating a last minute 97th minute winner against Liechtenstein. That's how bad it was back then. Regardless of points gained, anything after that has to be considered an improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 In the last Euro qualifiers, we had the management celebrating a last minute 97th minute winner against Liechtenstein. That's how bad it was back then. Regardless of points gained, anything after that has to be considered an improvement. Well of course. I think I've made it quite clear how dreadful I regard the Levein regime as having been. To have not improved a little would be genuinely difficult. My problem is that that's all we've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 true, however we didnt take full points from the mighty lithuania when we had them in our group, and tbh i cannot remember the last time scotland took so many points from teams seeded above them Lithuania and Gibraltar are not remotely comparable and you don't need me to tell you that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Lithuania and Gibraltar are not remotely comparable and you don't need me to tell you that. Doesnt matter the point remains, they are a minnow in europe terms, same as georgia The last European qualifiers we finished with 11 points, 2 teans seeded above us and 2 below, add another higher seeded team into that pot and I'll argue we wouldn't have got another 4 points like we did this time around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Doesnt matter the point remains, they are a minnow in europe terms, same as georgia The last European qualifiers we finished with 11 points, 2 teans seeded above us and 2 below, add another higher seeded team into that pot and I'll argue we wouldn't have got another 4 points like we did this time around Why are you arguing with me in a way that implies I'm championing Levein? I wanted him dragged from his bed and shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordopolis Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Why are you arguing with me in a way that implies I'm championing Levein? I wanted him dragged from his bed and shot. Bit harsh. Hauled from his bike and given a sound kicking, maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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