54_and_counting Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 No, but even taking those zero points into account, we threw points away against Poland and were rancid against Ireland and Georgia. Even accounting for Ireland and Poland being ranked above us, that was pretty shocking stuff, and it's games like that which cost us. Not the ones against Germany. If Scotland had done THEIR jobs, they'd have gone through, or at the very least taken a playoff spot. But they couldn't. threw away points against poland? we were the only team to take something from warsaw, we got more points in ireland than germany, we got 7 points from the 4 games of ireland and georgia, rancid or not we got more points from poland and ireland games than many would have expected at the start of the campaign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 didnt eck lose to georgia that effectively cost us a place at the finals? and i would seriously argue that this current team is the weakest the scotland squad has been in decades as i said before, we could argue day and night, but a scotland team hasnt finished with 15 points in a qualifying campaign since eck had us, and in that time we have had such magnificent oppoents as iceland, wales, liechenstein. Yes, I know about the previous Georgia result. That was obviously the point I was making in saying that that result was in part, mitigated against by the fact that under him we'd won in Paris and hammered Ukraine. Had we won in Dortmund and beaten Poland, that would have been mitigating too, as regards our latest Georgian nightmare. However, we didn't. Your point about this being a tough group is overstated and also compensated for, by the fact that unlike these previous campaigns, 3rd place would have kept us in the tournament. I'm not for a moment wishing to defend the records of Levein or Burley. However, progress from those dreadful lows needs to be more apparent and marked than it's been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I'm not for a moment wishing to defend the records of Levein or Burley. However, progress from those dreadful lows needs to be more apparent and marked than it's been. what kind of progress do you expect when strachan has pretty much the same pool of players at his disposal that predecessors have had, especially as our groups are now as hard as they have been since god knows when given our current seedings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rednyella Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I tend to agree with Graham Spiers (there is always a first time) in that we are not 'vastly' improved like Keith Jackson of the Record keeps saying. I also agree with Willie Millers thoughts that we started the campaign for the Euros very well but stumbled badly in the 2nd half of the campaign therefore backing up Spier's comments and giving reason for being not sure about the coaching staff. I hear McCall using excuses the other night on sportsound. Hard group, results not going our way, late Irish goals...blah blah. However I think Strachan is the best we have currently. No active manager with real club management quality like a Moyes or an up and coming gaffer like Alex Neil or Derek McInnes will touch the job. Nor can we get Sir Alex out of retirement, so from what we have Gordon is the best. I think most will agree. So him staying I have no issue with. Walter can take a running jump as he walked away. Where I draw the line is the media and blinded tartan army supporters who say we are a much better side than 3-4 years ago. If you look on paper teams around us have a better and higher quality spine of players than we do. We are playing better as WGS brings in some stability and he is no doubt liked by the players but we're not vastly better. Results don't suggest this. For example take Wales. With the like of Bale, (Real), Ramsey (Arsenal), Allen (Liverpool), Davies (Spurs). We have some good players but Wales have 4 players at consistently top European teams. We have no one in our side playing at this level week in and week out and so we rely on team work ethic which is what makes N.I. Qualifying so amazing. So that gives us hope. I just think everyone needs to take a breath and think about the wider problem. When I was growing up I was in the park all evening and in the holidays, all day playing football. It's not the case anymore. Pitches are being replaced by housing, shopping centers and supermarkets and we have an SFA with their heads stuck up their a*ses. Strachan will see us through and make us competitive. And we might just make it to Russia but we need wholesale changes. Look at Iceland, Belgium and Wales! There is no reason we cannot in time mimic this but something other than debating needs to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidernation Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 If wishes were horses....................... .............Strachan would still be picking donkeys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 what kind of progress do you expect when strachan has pretty much the same pool of players at his disposal that predecessors have had, especially as our groups are now as hard as they have been since god knows when given our current seedings I expected us to finish above Ireland. I expected us to take six points from Georgia. I expected us to still be alive heading into the last round of fixtures. None of those things would have represented massive leaps. The fact that the first half of the campaign - despite featuring trips to Germany and Poland - was markedly better than the second half, also does nothing to aid an argument about progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I expected us to finish above Ireland. I expected us to take six points from Georgia. I expected us to still be alive heading into the last round of fixtures. None of those things would have represented massive leaps. The fact that the first half of the campaign - despite featuring trips to Germany and Poland - was markedly better than the second half, also does nothing to aid an argument about progress. why did you expect us to finish above ireland, what previous campaigns have given any indication that we could finish above them i agree about taking 6 points from georgia, but i cannot remember a scotland manager ever having 100% record against lesser teams in our groups, not an excuse but a realistic outlook i guess being alive going into the last round of fixtures is harsh, by then all teams had played gibralter twice, we hadnt, the last time we had went into the last round of fixtures "alive" as you put it, we had to play spain away, so by that stage we had played all the diddies, this time around we had a guaranteed 3 points in the final game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 why did you expect us to finish above ireland, what previous campaigns have given any indication that we could finish above them i agree about taking 6 points from georgia, but i cannot remember a scotland manager ever having 100% record against lesser teams in our groups, not an excuse but a realistic outlook i guess being alive going into the last round of fixtures is harsh, by then all teams had played gibralter twice, we hadnt, the last time we had went into the last round of fixtures "alive" as you put it, we had to play spain away, so by that stage we had played all the diddies, this time around we had a guaranteed 3 points in the final game And yet we were more than three adrift of three teams. The Irish squad was not strong and it played an agricultural style. We should have been looking to get above them and our direct results against them certainly didn't challenge that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 And yet we were more than three adrift of three teams. The Irish squad was not strong and it played an agricultural style. We should have been looking to get above them and our direct results against them certainly didn't challenge that idea. we're never going to agree imo finishing a tougher group with more points than previous campaigns is a sign of progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 we're never going to agree imo finishing a tougher group with more points than previous campaigns is a sign of progress You're right - we won't agree, but I've enjoyed the discussion. As I've said, I don't think Strachan has been so bad, as to demand his removal. I don't think he's been so good that such a possibility should not at least be on the table though. I think we both agree that he's been an improvement on Levein, but disagree as to the extent of this improvement. For you, it's been significant; for me meagre. Hopefully we can both agree that improvement has been massive after the next campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I think we should look to the rugby team to see the difference a genuinely talented coach can make. Scotland have outperformed all expectations and rankings. That's the coaching staff. And Cotter barely smiles at the press, let alone wisecracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 You're right - we won't agree, but I've enjoyed the discussion. As I've said, I don't think Strachan has been so bad, as to demand his removal. I don't think he's been so good that such a possibility should not at least be on the table though. I think we both agree that he's been an improvement on Levein, but disagree as to the extent of this improvement. For you, it's been significant; for me meagre. Hopefully we can both agree that improvement has been massive after the next campaign. yup, he badly needs even a playoff spot, however, i was listening to clyde 1 on sat and they were insinuating that scotland fans will be looking at the likes of slovenia and slovakia and thinking we should be beating them at home and a draw away, which imo is utterly ridiculous given one is seeded above us and the other is a dark horse that we havent a clue what will be like by then is asking for 18 points minimum too much (nothing from the england games in that scenario) and would it get us 2nd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I think we should look to the rugby team to see the difference a genuinely talented coach can make. Scotland have outperformed all expectations and rankings. That's the coaching staff. And Cotter barely smiles at the press, let alone wisecracks. the rugby team that failed to hold a lead in the final 2 minutes when in possession that effectively cost them everything now where have i seen that recently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 didnt eck lose to georgia that effectively cost us a place at the finals? and i would seriously argue that this current team is the weakest the scotland squad has been in decades as i said before, we could argue day and night, but a scotland team hasnt finished with 15 points in a qualifying campaign since eck had us, and in that time we have had such magnificent oppoents as iceland, wales, liechenstein, lithuania etc this was the hardest group scotland have had in years, and we finished with the most points in years, to me thats progress on our part, even if we didnt get a playoff slot You're right that this is one of the hardest groups we've had - only 2008 was more difficult - but I completely disagree with that part. This is by a considerable distance the strongest squad we've had since Brown was in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 You're right that this is one of the hardest groups we've had - only 2008 was more difficult - but I completely disagree with that part. This is by a considerable distance the strongest squad we've had since Brown was in charge. By a distance? Nah, I wouldn't say it was the strongest at all. Very suspect defensively in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 By a distance? Nah, I wouldn't say it was the strongest at all. Very suspect defensively in particular. We are suspect defensively, but we have been for years in terms of personnel and a lack of depth. What first choice defence have we had in that time that was any better than Hutton - Martin - Hanley - Robertson? As a comparison I'll use 2008 since it was our best campaign in that period. The players who started in defence throughout that group were as follows: Weir - 12 McManus - 8 Naysmith - 7 Alexander - 7 Hutton - 4 Pressley - 3 Dailly - 3 Caldwell - 1 Neilson - 1 McEveley - 1 Murty - 1 So Weir was the only ever-present, and throughout the campaign played alongside such quality as Graeme Murty and Jay McEveley. Gary Naysmith was the most common pick at left back when he was already in rapid decline due to his injuries, Hutton didn't break through until the second half of the campaign, for the first few games Christian Dailly and Steven Pressley were starters. I'd much rather have a first choice defence of Hutton - Martin - Hanley - Robertson than Alexander - Weir - McManus - Naysmith (past-it). I know I've just looked at one period there, but it seems to make sense to pick the most successful campaign as a comparison rather than when the likes of Lee Wilkie or Steven Caldwell were getting starts. We've definitely got better players in defence now, as we do in every position other than in goal, with Gordon no longer being as ridiculously good as he once was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Gaines Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 53_and_counting, on 18 Oct 2015 - 18:48, said:threw away points against poland? we were the only team to take something from warsaw, we got more points in ireland than germany, we got 7 points from the 4 games of ireland and georgia, rancid or not we got more points from poland and ireland games than many would have expected at the start of the campaign First off, again, I'm not interested in what other teams did anywhere else. Scotland had their own destiny in their own hands, and I'm not going to discuss the results of other games. This is about the failure of Scotland and Strachan. They threw away points against Ireland because they turned up and looked like they couldn't be arsed. Georgia took three points, which is quite frankly a fucking embarrassment. The home Poland game was also a complete throwaway. Even in the home game against Ireland, we were pretty pish, and performances like that DO matter, because they're then repeated and we didn't get lucky again against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Reading through the first half of this thread, I don't know why anyone other than the desperate would want the Scotland manager's job. Everybody seems to lose all sense of proportion and logical sense when it comes to the national team. We're making the England fans look positively sane and rational these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoRaj Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 They threw away points against Ireland because they turned up and looked like they couldn't be arsed. Georgia took three points, which is quite frankly a fucking embarrassment. The home Poland game was also a complete throwaway. Even in the home game against Ireland, we were pretty pish, and performances like that DO matter, because they're then repeated and we didn't get lucky again against them. Utter shite. Ireland are clearly set up to shitfest matches and stop the opposition playing. It worked against Germany, it worked to a certain extent against us but we still came away with 4 points. You are an absolute idiot if you think we were pish against Ireland at home. It was a nervy game against stuffy opposition and we got the job done, end of story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergie's no1 fan Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 We outplayed Ireland in every area of the pitch at Parkhead. We showed them up for what they were. Constant long balls to Walters which we lapped up. There has been improvements under GS. Not as good as some would have you believe but we are a side capable of scoring goals home and away now. It's typical the only game we didn't score in this campaign cost us qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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