Gordon EF Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 23 hours ago, DA Baracus said: That's just a lazy, cliched argument that is most likely a load of nonsense. Those people are just bigots https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/ Well it's not a lazy cliche for homophobes. There are multiple studies suggesting this as a factor in homophobia. It isn't a massive stretch to imagine the same goes for transphobes. Maybe not so much that they're attracted to trans people but probably that they're not as secure in their own gender identity as they want to project. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/ Well it's not a lazy cliche for homophobes. There are multiple studies suggesting this as a factor in homophobia. It isn't a massive stretch to imagine the same goes for transphobes. Maybe not so much that they're attracted to trans people but probably that they're not as secure in their own gender identity as they want to project.I get this but I also understand why queers are suspicious of straight people who want to quickly dismiss bigots as being in the closet because it can be interpreted as an attempt at deflection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 26 minutes ago, NotThePars said: I get this but I also understand why queers are suspicious of straight people who want to quickly dismiss bigots as being in the closet because it can be interpreted as an attempt at deflection. Yeah. Like all this stuff the best guess would probably be it's an element of what makes up homophobia/transphobia for some people. As in, the results are significant enough to suggest it's a thing but certainly not the whole story. Also don't think it excuses or diminishes bigotry in the slightest. Bigotry is probably the result of 'other things' in the vast majority of cases and I don't think any of the causes of it are really excuses. But yeah, when it comes across as "haha, that means you're actually gay tho" type stuff, it doesn't sit right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 Anyone see this btw? I actually can't comprehend how this is a thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 22 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: Is this what detournement was on about when he described uighurs as undeveloped? Detournement doesn't know what detournement is in about so there's no chance for the rest of us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 24 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: Is this what detournement was on about when he described uighurs as undeveloped? Jesus. H. Christ. I seemed to have missed that one, thankfully. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 28 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: And we are through the looking glass. That'll be me for the night... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 14 hours ago, Stormzy said: Anyone see this btw? I actually can't comprehend how this is a thing. You can read million different articles lauding the introduction of the pill being an emancipatory event for Western women. This is no different. It's the equivalent of women realising that their priest telling them that contraception is a sin is bullshit to control them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 14 hours ago, MixuFruit said: Is this what detournement was on about when he described uighurs as undeveloped? I've looked into it more and the claims of oppression come from two sources either a single US State department study which interviewed 8 Uighurs or an Australian Christian fundamentalist lunatic called Adrian Zenz who runs an organisation called The Victims Of Communism. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 Just now, MixuFruit said: When you described Uighurs as far less socially developed, what did you mean? Stuff like school attendance, literacy, employment, gender equality and religion mainly. I think I was reading Marshall Berman's "All That Is Solid Melts Into Air" when I wrote that so I was probably thinking the stuff he wrote about emerging individual subjectivity and political consciousness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 I've looked into it more and the claims of oppression come from two sources either a single US State department study which interviewed 8 Uighurs or an Australian Christian fundamentalist lunatic called Adrian Zenz who runs an organisation called The Victims Of Communism. Well I've personally spoken to Uighurs who have claimed oppression, so there's a third source for you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 1 hour ago, MixuFruit said: Does it then follow that your position is that if there are cultural reasons for any disparity in these factors between Uighurs and the general Chinese indicators for these factors (for argument's sake that of the Han population), and to bring those to parity in some areas brings those two cultures into conflict, the duty of the Chinese government to intervene overrides the Uighur status quo? They are located at the extremities of a country which had it's economic development violently stunted by Western imperialism (joined by Japan) for 130 years (First Opium War to Nixon normalisation). No one is saying China is perfect or flawless just that they should be subject to the same judgements and standards as Western nations were/are in their economic development. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 They are located at the extremities of a country which had it's economic development violently stunted by Western imperialism (joined by Japan) for 130 years (First Opium War to Nixon normalisation). No one is saying China is perfect or flawless just that they should be subject to the same judgements and standards as Western nations were/are in their economic development.They are subject to the same standards as Western nations, that's why they're rightfully being pilloried for their behaviour. To suggest that China are getting a hard time because they're not European is absolute deflectionary nonsense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 1 minute ago, MixuFruit said: Just a yes or no is fine. Is that your position? I've struggled through that disaster of a sentence and I think I understand what you are asking. Yes the Chinese government have a duty to deliver modern society to all their citizens. This isn't Star Trek. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said: They are subject to the same standards as Western nations, that's why they're rightfully being pilloried for their behaviour. To suggest that China are getting a hard time because they're not European is absolute deflectionary nonsense. I'm loathe to reply to you but that is nonsense. There are many liberals and hard right wingers who believe that the Chinese state shouldn't exist in its current form because of its actions in Xianjing but would never apply the same standards to the British, American and French states which have done far, far worse around the world. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 1 minute ago, MixuFruit said: Specifically, even if in doing so it causes conflict with existing social structures of Uighurs? If the purpose is to change the social structures then that is inevitable. I do think the conflict is overstated though eg. Uighurs are still clearly free to worship as evidenced by the number of mosques. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Hibs Fan Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 13 minutes ago, Detournement said: No one is saying China is perfect or flawless just that they should be subject to the same judgements and standards as Western nations were/are in their economic development. But the two outcomes of that line of thought I can see are either China should be criticised for this, or that western nations should not, because after all they were at a different point in their economic development. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said: But the two outcomes of that line of thought I can see are either China should be criticised for this, or that western nations should not, because after all they were at a different point in their economic development. The switch from a feudal style system to capitalism is always going to cause disruption it's inevitable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Hibs Fan Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, Detournement said: The switch from a feudal style system to capitalism is always going to cause disruption it's inevitable. You're right, but when you say that you should apply the same standards then you should apply the same standards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 I'm loathe to reply to you but that is nonsense. There are many liberals and hard right wingers who believe that the Chinese state shouldn't exist in its current form because of its actions in Xianjing but would never apply the same standards to the British, American and French states which have done far, far worse around the world. Of course there are but there are folk with garbage opinions about everything it's possible to disagree on. Why that means you should stick up for China's behaviour regarding this issue is beyond me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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