General Politics Thread

[Sooky]

So Surrey council, Tory controlled, is going to have a referendum on raising council tax by 15% to pay for social care costs.

[welshbairn]

I hope the recent phase of referenda/ums doesn't mean that everytime a ruling party finds a issue that hits the news and gains temporary popular support, they can override parliament and order a referendum.

[Sooky]

I hope the recent phase of referenda/ums doesn't mean that everytime a ruling party finds a issue that hits the news and gains temporary popular support, they can override parliament and order a referendum.

There was a bit of a weird scenario in Slovenia either last year or the year before.



The vast majority of parliament passed a law that allowed same-sex marriage.

Opponents then got enough petition signatures to legally hold a referendum on the issue.

Parliament blocked referendum as they deemed a referendum on human freedoms unconstitutional.

Opponents appealed to the courts and won.

Referendum was held and won by opponents - law couldn't be passed.




Sort of makes you pleased that in this country the most damage a public can do with a petition is to have a debate in parliament - which the government don't even need to do.

[Wee Willie]

41 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I hope the recent phase of referenda/ums doesn't mean that everytime a ruling party finds a issue that hits the news and gains temporary popular support, they can override parliament and order a referendum.

I hope that when Scotland is independent then we have lots of referendums like the Swiss do.
In a nation of 5m a referendum is a tidy way of getting the electors thoughts/wishes.

1. Do you want Trident in Scotland y/n

2. Do ye want our armed forces tae go half-way round the world tae bomb somebody y/n

3. Dae ye want us tae bide in the EU y/n

4. Dae ye want us tae leave the EU y/n

5. Dae ye want us tae keep the monarchy y/n

and so on...

 

 

[doulikefish]

3 hours ago, Sooky said:

So Surrey council, Tory controlled, is going to have a referendum on raising council tax by 15% to pay for social care costs.

Was quite funny seeing the conservative council leader blaming the Conservatives for the cuts

[Wee Willie]

2 minutes ago, Sooky said:

 

There was a bit of a weird scenario in Slovenia either last year or the year before.



The vast majority of parliament passed a law that allowed same-sex marriage.

Opponents then got enough petition signatures to legally hold a referendum on the issue.

Parliament blocked referendum as they deemed a referendum on human freedoms unconstitutional.

Opponents appealed to the courts and won.

Referendum was held and won by opponents - law couldn't be passed.




Sort of makes you pleased that in this country the most damage a public can do with a petition is to have a debate in parliament - which the government don't even need to do.

So you're pleased that the wishes of the people in the UK can be ignored.
Was it only because you appear tae be in favour of the law in Slovenia that the electors can get tae f**k.

[welshbairn]

31 minutes ago, Wee Willie said:

I hope that when Scotland is independent then we have lots of referendums like the Swiss do.
In a nation of 5m a referendum is a tidy way of getting the electors thoughts/wishes.

1. Do you want Trident in Scotland y/n 

2. Do ye want our armed forces tae go half-way round the world tae bomb somebody y/n

3. Dae ye want us tae bide in the EU y/n

4. Dae ye want us tae leave the EU y/n

5. Dae ye want us tae keep the monarchy y/n

and so on...

 

 

Do you want a referendum every week, on whatever issue hits the Record's front page and which the electorate are most ignorant about?

And are you really confident you'd get the answer you want?

Edited January 19, 2017 by welshbairn

[WILLIEA]

3 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Do you want a referendum every week, on whatever issue the electorate are most ignorant about?

And are you really confident you'd get the answer you want?

You mean like the EU one?

[NotThePars]

Referendums are a terrible way to conduct politics. The tyranny of the majority is not a good thing.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, WILLIEA said:

You mean like the EU one?

Yes, from my perspective. I think Wee Willie would be disappointed by the results of a referendum about whether we should keep the nuclear "deterrent" and/or the Monarchy.

Edited January 19, 2017 by welshbairn

[Sooky]

So you're pleased that the wishes of the people in the UK can be ignored.
Was it only because you appear tae be in favour of the law in Slovenia that the electors can get tae f**k.

I support referendums for major constitutional issues, such as independence and leaving the EU. I don't think the general public should really be using plebiscites to vote on things that affect other people's rights.

I'm happy to live in a representative democracy where only the major issues are, occasionally, put to a referendum.

[Wee Willie]

42 minutes ago, Wee Willie said:

I hope that when Scotland is independent then we have lots of referendums like the Swiss do.
In a nation of 5m a referendum is a tidy way of getting the electors thoughts/wishes.

1. Do you want Trident in Scotland y/n

2. Do ye want our armed forces tae go half-way round the world tae bomb somebody y/n

3. Dae ye want us tae bide in the EU y/n

4. Dae ye want us tae leave the EU y/n

5. Dae ye want us tae keep the monarchy y/n

and so on...

 

 

read my lips

12 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Do you want a referendum every week, on whatever issue hits the Record's front page and which the electorate are most ignorant about?

And are you really confident you'd get the answer you want?

I'm no concerned with the answers.
I want the electors tae vote on the big issues and no leave it tae politicians.

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Yes, from my perspective. I think Wee Willie would be disappointed by the results of a referendum about whether we should keep the nuclear "deterrent" and/or the Monarchy.

I hope that when Scotland is independent then we have lots of referendums like the Swiss do.

3 minutes ago, Sooky said:

 

I support referendums for major constitutional issues, such as independence and leaving the EU. I don't think the general public should really be using plebiscites to vote on things that affect other people's rights.

I'm happy to live in a representative democracy where only the major issues are, occasionally, put to a referendum.

 

I'm talking about post independence, in a country of 5m+.

[welshbairn]

29 minutes ago, Wee Willie said:

I want the electors tae vote on the big issues and no leave it tae politicians.

 

Why do you think the electorate would be better informed than the politicians they chose to represent them?

[Wee Willie]

6 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Why do you think the electorate would be better informed than the politicians they chose to represent them?

I dinnae but I could reverse that.
Why do you think the politicians would be better informed than the electorate?
Can you guarantee that politicians would listed tae the electors and vote accordingly?
With your argument we shouldnae have a referendum on independence or the EU
Leave it tae the politicians cos they ken best.

 

[welshbairn]

22 minutes ago, Wee Willie said:

I dinnae but I could reverse that.
Why do you think the politicians would be better informed than the electorate? Its their job and we can sack them if they don't do their homework.
Can you guarantee that politicians would listed tae the electors and vote accordingly? I'd hope not, the electorate are often wrong.
With your argument we shouldnae have a referendum on independence or the EU. Independence was about a major constitutional change, Brexit was about internal Tory party politics with no new treaties on the cards.
Leave it tae the politicians cos they ken best. Aye, but keep an eye on them. How many ordinary voters do you think knew how hugely complicated, lengthy and expensive Brexit would be, with very little prospect of gain? There's a reason why the vast majority of MPs voted against it, they were better informed.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by welshbairn

[Wee Willie]

3 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

26 minutes ago, Wee Willie said:

I dinnae but I could reverse that.
Why do you think the politicians would be better informed than the electorate? Its their job and we can sack them if they don't do their homework.
Can you guarantee that politicians would listed tae the electors and vote accordingly? I'd hope not, the electorate are often wrong.
With your argument we shouldnae have a referendum on independence or the EU. Independence was about a major constitutional change, Brexit was about internal Tory party politics with no new treaties on the cards.
Leave it tae the politicians cos they ken best. Aye, but keep an eye on them. How many ordinary voters do you think knew how hugely complicated, lengthy and expensive Brexit would be, with very little prospect of gain? There's a reason why the vast majority of MPs voted against it, they were better informed.

 

There's a reason why the vast majority of MPs voted against it, they were better informed.

But you are missing the point.
It shouldn't be what the politicians want it should always be what the electors want.
Even if the electors are stupid, ignorant, misinformed and whatever.
These people are the country, no the politicians

You seem tae be saying (as a politician) don't do as I do just do as I say.
Come on, I'm talking about a wee country of 5m+.
Dae ye no think there is room for referendums on big issues?

 

[welshbairn]

Just now, Wee Willie said:

There's a reason why the vast majority of MPs voted against it, they were better informed.

But you are missing the point.
It shouldn't be what the politicians want it should always be what the electors want.
Even if the electors are stupid, ignorant, misinformed and whatever.
These people are the country, no the politicians

You seem tae be saying (as a politician) don't do as I do just do as I say.
Come on, I'm talking about a wee country of 5m+.
Dae ye no think there is room for referendums on big issues?

 

I think that complex issues are better decided by people we choose to look into the details on our behalf, rather than Daily Record headline writers, and the stupid, ignorant and misinformed, as you say. If people don't understand what the question means in a referendum how is their opinion valuable?

[Wee Willie]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I think that complex issues are better decided by people we choose to look into the details on our behalf, rather than Daily Record headline writers, and the stupid, ignorant and misinformed, as you say. If people don't understand what the question means in a referendum how is their opinion valuable?

Because at the end of the day it is their democratic decision.
If (as you say) politicians look into the details on our behalf then why do they differ in their conclusions?
Are you telling me that electors read all the political manifestos then make a voting decision based on that?
Or are most of them like me and ken which party tae support and which issues tae support without the need tae read manifestos.
If you were in charge at the EU referendum would you say tae the electors, naw you are all ignorant of the facts so f**k you we'll keep the status quo?

To get back tae my original post: In a country of 5m are you saying there is no room for referendums?

 

 

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, Wee Willie said:

Because at the end of the day it is their democratic decision.
If (as you say) politicians look into the details on our behalf then why do they differ in their conclusions?
Are you telling me that electors read all the political manifestos then make a voting decision based on that?
Or are most of them like me and ken which party tae support and which issues tae support without the need tae read manifestos.
If you were in charge at the EU referendum would you say tae the electors, naw you are all ignorant of the facts so f**k you we'll keep the status quo?

To get back tae my original post: In a country of 5m are you saying there is no room for referendums?

 

 

I don't see why a population of 5m should be any different from 60m in that regard. Politicians are people we pay to look into the details of matters we can't be arsed doing and making their best decision. If we disagree we can sack them at the next election. I wouldn't want to decide on the Treasury's monetary policy as I know fuckall about it. Similarly the vast majority of people who voted on Brexit knew fuckall about the inevitable consequences.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Referendums are a terrible way to conduct politics. The tyranny of the majority is not a good thing.

This.

They are appropriate for certain issues but not for issues where wallets and who shouts the loudest wins the vote.