pandarilla Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Does anyone voting remain really like the clusterfuck that is the EU? You are voting to give them more power over you on a plate, are you that blind that you don't see? All these so called vetoes will be worth shit once remain wins and you will all say but I thought Cameron told us it would be OK and he will be long gone laughing all the way to some EU cushy number no doubt. I've tried hard to engage with the left wing leave arguments, and played devil's advocate a fair bit. But it's not on really. I do genuinely hate the eu - and yet I'm definitely now voting remain. The chances of an improved, more progressive situation for the British people with an out vote are so, so slim. It's a thoroughly depressing state of affairs though. The exact opposite of the vibe before the Scottish referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirkyblue2 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Looks like the Leave campaign are splitting - UKIP being disowned by the official campaign. Because of that stupid poster, no wonder they wanted Farage out the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirkyblue2 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I've tried hard to engage with the left wing leave arguments, and played devil's advocate a fair bit. But it's not on really. I do genuinely hate the eu - and yet I'm definitely now voting remain. The chances of an improved, more progressive situation for the British people with an out vote are so, so slim. It's a thoroughly depressing state of affairs though. The exact opposite of the vibe before the Scottish referendum. I don't get why you are voting remain but I have got to respect other people's views but I hate the EU with a passion, probably an unhealthy obsession and maybe it won't be that bad if we stay in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I can't give specific examples but what if they tell us we need to adopt the Euro for example? You mean by threatening to chuck us out of the EU if we don't? I find that unlikely scenario scary but I don't see why you would Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLIEA Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Does anyone voting leave really believe that we won't revert to pre EU levels of incompetence , short time working, falling living standards and plummeting wages. Not to mention cringe Buy British campaigns just to keep our heads above water? Don't reply with 5th biggest economy in world unless you understand the difference between turnover and profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I don't get why you are voting remain but I have got to respect other people's views but I hate the EU with a passion, probably an unhealthy obsession and maybe it won't be that bad if we stay in. As much as I hate the organisation, the alternative scenario is worse (in my opinion). Clearly damaged economy leading to job losses (certainly for the short and even medium term), victory for the little Englander mentality, pissed off and further divided Europe, far right groups across the continent given a boost, an even more right wing government in downing st, less protection for the environment, workers rights, human rights... It's the equivalent of throwing a grenade into the mix in the vain hope that things will improve. I'm certainly not at that stage politically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Baroness Warsi has switched sides. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-baroness-sayeeda-warsi-defects-from-leave-to-remain-a7090741.html Bizarre really - she may not have liked the tone of the campaign but if she believe leaving the EU is the best thing for Britain, why not vote Leave while at the same time criticising the campaign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Does anyone voting leave really believe that we won't revert to pre EU levels of incompetence , short time working, falling living standards and plummeting wages. Not to mention cringe Buy British campaigns just to keep our heads above water? Don't reply with 5th biggest economy in world unless you understand the difference between turnover and profit What I would say is that Britain is a very different country now. It's almost impossible to predict the long term economic and political effects. Short term carnage is pretty much guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Why is it some folk reject the 'too poor, too wee' argument when discussing Scottish Independence but buy it lock, stock and barrel when discussing the UK in relation to the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Don't know why people think there will be a second referendum within ten years if it close win for remain. I can't see there being a parliamentary majority in favour in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Why is it some folk reject the 'too poor, too wee' argument when discussing Scottish Independence but buy it lock, stock and barrel when discussing the UK in relation to the EU? It's not a too wee too poor argument - it's an argument that the sum of the parts are greater than the individual. Those who advocated independence also did so on the basis that would be within the EU - they preferred a union where they would be an equal partner to one where they were not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Baroness Warsi has switched sides.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-baroness-sayeeda-warsi-defects-from-leave-to-remain-a7090741.html Bizarre really - she may not have liked the tone of the campaign but if she believe leaving the EU is the best thing for Britain, why not vote Leave while at the same time criticising the campaign? There's something fishy about last minute switchers on both sides. If you're on the front line of politics you don't change position on such a major issue at such a late stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Don't know why people think there will be a second referendum within ten years if it close win for remain. I can't see there being a parliamentary majority in favour in it. Just like the Yes campaign didn't disappear after the Scottish referendum the Leave campaigners won't disappear either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 It's not a too wee too poor argument - it's an argument that the sum of the parts are greater than the individual. Those who advocated independence also did so on the basis that would be within the EU - they preferred a union where they would be an equal partner to one where they were not. Independence within the EU may have been the SNP position, it's ridiculous to assume it was the position of all YES voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Why is it some folk reject the 'too poor, too wee' argument when discussing Scottish Independence but buy it lock, stock and barrel when discussing the UK in relation to the EU? A few points: independence for Scotland meant achieving the relative normality of statehood, in which sovereign powers are vested in the country itself, and its national parliament is tailored to looking after the economic and social needs and future of the country. The UK as a unitary state already has that, and has made a bit of a hash of it in the opinion of many (as well as failing to adequately govern its "member" nations). In that sense leaving the EU and leaving the UK are wildly different things. One is leaving a supranational trade union with political strings; the other is achieving what the UK as a whole already has. The recent history of the UK illustrates that it elects governments which are not particularly interested in longterm thinking. It's hard to say that about Scotland, since it doesn't elect its own sovereign parliaments and never has done (although of course it voted as a minority region for poor governments). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Independence within the EU may have been the SNP position, it's ridiculous to assume it was the position of all YES voters. Did I say it was? But given that the SNP were the main driving force of the campaign, and are the main dominant political force for independence then clearly the position of supporting independence within the EU is still going to be a significant majority of those who voted Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Independence within the EU may have been the SNP position, it's ridiculous to assume it was the position of all YES voters. Bear in mind one of BT's arguments was and is that Scotland is still too poor, wee and stupid to even get into the EU, as well as being too wee, poor and stupid to govern itself outside the UK. Brexiters are still arguing that the UK is safe even if Scots are stripped of our European citizenship against our decision this week, because OIL, POVERTY, THE SKINT REGION KNOWS WE HAVE IT IN OUR POCKET, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Bear in mind one of BT's arguments was and is that Scotland is still too poor, wee and stupid to even get into the EU, as well as being too wee, poor and stupid to govern itself outside the UK. Brexiters are still arguing that the UK is safe even if Scots are stripped of our European citizenship against our decision this week, because OIL, POVERTY, THE SKINT REGION KNOWS WE HAVE IT IN OUR POCKET, etc.That's why I find Granny's position to be ludicrous.Does he genuinely believe it would be better out? Or is he naively supporting Leave as a purely tactical decision? If it's the former I think it's delusional. If it's the latter I think it's political idiocy - if enough did as Granny you'd have a Leave majority in both the UK and Scotland - with any chance of independence killed stone dead. Vote for what you believe in not what you think is politically expedient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundermonkey Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Frighteningly, a straw poll of friends and family makes me think Leave will win on Thursday. I imagine a lot of working class Yes voters will end up being working class Leave voters, meaning the Yes vote, certainly in the case of my social circle, was driven by self-interest rather than sovereignty. I'm not so sure Nizzy. I have yet to find a confirmed Yes voter who backs Brexit. Whether that's through a misguided belief Brexit = Indyref 2 who knows. We are not ready for another Indyref and if it came on the back of Brexit the result wouldn't be far from the last. And, as much as I tried to convince myself otherwise 2 years ago, every decision made at the ballot box comes with a degree of self-interest. I'd imagine whether you think that's a bad thing or not is determined by your circumstances. It's easier to vote with your conscience when you can afford to. Although I can't get my head round the logic that Brexit will improve the lives of those in poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I'm not so sure Nizzy. I have yet to find a confirmed Yes voter who backs Brexit. Whether that's through a misguided belief Brexit = Indyref 2 who knows. We are not ready for another Indyref and if it came on the back of Brexit the result wouldn't be far from the last. And, as much as I tried to convince myself otherwise 2 years ago, every decision made at the ballot box comes with a degree of self-interest. I'd imagine whether you think that's a bad thing or not is determined by your circumstances. It's easier to vote with your conscience when you can afford to. Although I can't get my head round the logic that Brexit will improve the lives of those in poverty. I think the result would be different but it would be a political gamble to vote against what you believe in because of political expediency. If it turns out to be a Leave vote and Scotland votes Remain then that's the point to talk about tactics not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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