renton Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Yeah, the way around intermittent generation is either 1) to have very diverse generation methods in terms of both geography and source - I.e. mixing onshore and offshore wind, hydro, tidal etc. With enough spare capacity from all sources that the chances of Not having enough generation at any given point is acceptably low 2) vast increase in storage so that you can smooth out intermittency. That is either battery technology, hydrogen fuel cells or stuff like hydro pump storage. I am aware of an Edinburgh start up doing gravity storage: you basically wind a big weight up a shaft, then release at given rate which turns a turbine. In both cases the missing, most important element is a smart grid system that can switch between local, and national generators smoothly, and rapidly as required, without inducing brown outs. Until you have something like that, traditional base load generators will still be needed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said: Something I can’t quite get my head round as I am hopeless at technical matters but maybe someone on here can answer for me? I hear lots of figures about huge amounts of green energy powering Scotland but, what if we get a few days or weeks with no wind, presumably we need to fall back on nuclear, gas, coal or hydro for power up to the full capacity needed. If that’s true and we can’t store wind power (or can we?) it means we need all our existing nuclear and fossil fuel generating capacity. Or am I getting this wrong? Seem to recall Andrew Neil ripping to shreds some green eco warrior on this a few years ago. It is true that you can't rely 100% on wind, solar, etc right now. Basically sources where you can't predict with high accuracy what their output will be ahead of time. But you can store energy produced from wind etc when it's produced and you don't need it. Battery storage is being used right now in conjunction with renewables and research in that area is going pretty much full steam ahead right now. Storage solutions are crucial to increasing the proportion of renewables in the energy mix. Right now, absolutely we do need a baseline of reliable, non-renewable power sources but the game isn't suddenly switching over one day completely to renewables. It's improving the technology and economic incentives required to switch more and more over to renewables over time. It's something the UK, and Scotland in particular, has actually been relatively successful at over the past while but doesn't seem to get too much recognition or publicity, probably because it's quite gradual and only really interesting to energy nerds. Imagine when all of the cars on the roads have batteries inside them and at any given time, a huge number of them are connected to the grid. You need more power because the wind's died down? Take a little bit from the batteries in electric vehicles and pay owners the difference. What may also happen is that non-renewable energy sources are kept in reserve as back ups. So they're not necessarily used to capacity every day but National Grid can pay a 'baseline standby payment' to plants who can stay ready to produce when needed. This isn't all or nothing. It's about degrees. Edited April 13, 2021 by Gordon EF 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonapersona Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 13 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said: Something I can’t quite get my head round as I am hopeless at technical matters but maybe someone on here can answer for me? I hear lots of figures about huge amounts of green energy powering Scotland but, what if we get a few days or weeks with no wind, presumably we need to fall back on nuclear, gas, coal or hydro for power up to the full capacity needed. If that’s true and we can’t store wind power (or can we?) it means we need all our existing nuclear and fossil fuel generating capacity. Or am I getting this wrong? Seem to recall Andrew Neil ripping to shreds some green eco warrior on this a few years ago. Excess energy is stored in these things called batteries. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 The only pumped storage in Scotland just now is Cruachan, but SSE are going to build a whopper at Coire Glas on the Great Glen: https://www.sserenewables.com/hydro/coire-glas/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 34 minutes ago, GordonS said: The only pumped storage in Scotland just now is Cruachan, but SSE are going to build a whopper at Coire Glas on the Great Glen: https://www.sserenewables.com/hydro/coire-glas/ ... also probably the closest you'll ever get to the feeling of being in a Bond villain's lair. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picklish Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Good to hear, definitely feels like Scotland has more capacity for hydro, beyond these two. What's going to happen to the nuclear power stations, they must be later on their lifecycles? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginaro Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 42 minutes ago, GordonS said: The only pumped storage in Scotland just now is Cruachan, but SSE are going to build a whopper at Coire Glas on the Great Glen: https://www.sserenewables.com/hydro/coire-glas/ The video in that page says there's four just now in UK, including this one on Loch Ness: https://www.sserenewables.com/hydro/foyers/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian1 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 14 hours ago, G51 said: Noticed that the Greens pre-election broadcast today claims that Scotland has the capacity to provide 25% of Europe's renewable energy. This number is total bullshit and even a back-of-a-fag-packet analysis would tell you that. Seems like something the Greens should be pretty strong on! IMO!! What does your back-of-a-fag-packet analysis come up with? I havent seen that broadcast but suspect he either said (or meant to say) Offshore Wind and Tidal Resources (see Scotland's percentage of Europe's offshore wind and tidal resources: EIR release - gov.scot (www.gov.scot)) I work in Renewable Energy and agree that Scotland has unbelievable resources and we can now effectively power Scotland from renewable energy alone - and we have barely even got started with Offshore Wind - The Scotwind licencing round opens up huge areas of the North Sea and these developements will not be commissioned for several years yet. There will be huge growth in Floating Wind over the next few years - not only to provide power to shore but also offshore and onshore hydrogen production utilising the green energy from the floating wind. The most productive turbines anywhere at present are for Hywind Scotland (off Peterhead so no surprise ) The largest turbines producing electricity anywhere in the world are at EOWDC (Aberdeen Bay) but they will be superceded by the ones at Kincardine in a few weeks (9 miles from Aberdeen) Scotland has an unbelievable opportunity and thankfully we have a government who are positive about the future of offshore wind. However, I look forward to seeing your aforementioned fag packet 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian1 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Anonapersona said: Excess energy is stored in these things called batteries. Yes, but I fully believe that Hydrogen will become the main storage solution for curtailed wind power - alongside battery storage 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, Caledonian1 said: What does your back-of-a-fag-packet analysis come up with? I havent seen that broadcast but suspect he either said (or meant to say) Offshore Wind and Tidal Resources (see Scotland's percentage of Europe's offshore wind and tidal resources: EIR release - gov.scot (www.gov.scot)) I work in Renewable Energy and agree that Scotland has unbelievable resources and we can now effectively power Scotland from renewable energy alone - and we have barely even got started with Offshore Wind - The Scotwind licencing round opens up huge areas of the North Sea and these developements will not be commissioned for several years yet. There will be huge growth in Floating Wind over the next few years - not only to provide power to shore but also offshore and onshore hydrogen production utilising the green energy from the floating wind. The most productive turbines anywhere at present are for Hywind Scotland (off Peterhead so no surprise ) The largest turbines producing electricity anywhere in the world are at EOWDC (Aberdeen Bay) but they will be superceded by the ones at Kincardine in a few weeks (9 miles from Aberdeen) Scotland has an unbelievable opportunity and thankfully we have a government who are positive about the future of offshore wind. However, I look forward to seeing your aforementioned fag packet As you work in this industry I’d be interested to know just how much of the industry is owned and controlled by Scottish or even UK companies. Do we manufacture the turbines or are they made abroad? We keep hearing about all the jobs created but how many of them are here and how many are overseas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonapersona Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 13 minutes ago, Caledonian1 said: Yes, but I fully believe that Hydrogen will become the main storage solution for curtailed wind power - alongside battery storage Totally agree. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophia Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 live national grid energy mix A Neil with his attack dog tabloid style is not the best place to look for nuance and the replies above mostly make much more sense than he would ever allow himself to make. The fact of the matter is that the national grid is on a journey from large centralized generation with a huge amount of spare fossil fuel capacity to one of distributed generation and at a local level this is characterised by the move from DNO to DSO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 45 minutes ago, Ginaro said: The video in that page says there's four just now in UK, including this one on Loch Ness: https://www.sserenewables.com/hydro/foyers/ Ah, forgot that Foyers is a pumped storage and not just a traditional hydro. The one in Wales is humungous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 22 minutes ago, sophia said: live national grid energy mix A Neil with his attack dog tabloid style is not the best place to look for nuance and the replies above mostly make much more sense than he would ever allow himself to make. The fact of the matter is that the national grid is on a journey from large centralized generation with a huge amount of spare fossil fuel capacity to one of distributed generation and at a local level this is characterised by the move from DNO to DSO. Andrew Neil's whole schtick is just repeating whichever attack is the most likely to make someone uncomfortable regardless of substance or veracity which is fine for when you're trying to anger child pedant Ben Shapiro but is useless when you want to have a productive discussion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 36 minutes ago, sophia said: live national grid energy mix A Neil with his attack dog tabloid style is not the best place to look for nuance and the replies above mostly make much more sense than he would ever allow himself to make. The fact of the matter is that the national grid is on a journey from large centralized generation with a huge amount of spare fossil fuel capacity to one of distributed generation and at a local level this is characterised by the move from DNO to DSO. Wow! Thats interesting. Didnt realise just how minuscule the wind percentage was. Am I reading this correctly? Thank goodness we have plenty of other sources of generating electricity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophia Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said: Wow! Thats interesting. Didnt realise just how minuscule the wind percentage was. Am I reading this correctly? Thank goodness we have plenty of other sources of generating electricity. No you aren't, you are looking at instantaneous values. You asked about periods when the wind doesn't blow. Scroll down and see how often that is. If you can read graphs, you should get the gist of it. I also mentioned that this is a process and in ten years time there will be a huge amount of additional offshore wind planted or indeed floated around our coast. Please though, don't make it a petty thing about conflating your constitutional preference to a choice of fossil fuel or renewables generation. If you do, you may find yourself on the wrong side of history. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, sophia said: No you aren't, you are looking at instantaneous values. You asked about periods when the wind doesn't blow. Scroll down and see how often that is. If you can read graphs, you should get the gist of it. I also mentioned that this is a process and in ten years time there will be a huge amount of additional offshore wind planted or indeed floated around our coast. Please though, don't make it a petty thing about conflating your constitutional preference to a choice of fossil fuel or renewables generation. If you do, you may find yourself on the wrong side of history. Yeah, over the last 12 months wind was 20% of GB electricity, and obviously a much higher chunk of Scottish generation. I like this site for the stats, it has nice, clear graphics and a good app: http://www.mygridgb.co.uk. I'm such a sad act that I bought his book. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G51 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 There is one renewable source that is even more predictable than fossil fuels, and holds an immense advantage over wind simply due to the sheer density of it's energy source. All aboard the tidal train boat 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Since 2012 wind has grown from less than 4% of the GB grid to over 21%, while coal has fallen from from 43% to less than 2%. (I remember an argument with a douchebag at a science festival in March 2015 who was insistent wind could never amount to much). Also, overall electricity use has fallen quite a long way because of insulation, efficient appliances etc. Despite having a centre right party through all of this the UK has done comparatively well on decarbonising electricity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, G51 said: There is one renewable source that is even more predictable than fossil fuels, and holds an immense advantage over wind simply due to the sheer density of it's energy source. All aboard the tidal train boat It's a Disney technology. It disney work. Ah seriously, you have to think at some point they'll crack it, but we've been waiting a surprisingly long time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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