The Grass Is Greener. Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 So with him do we just accept third /fourth best and just stick with the usual lads who get a game? Because that's what he does. I really hope he changes Clearly gives it there all? Steven whittaker (sp) still gets a fucking game and he is a lazy c**t. Are you suggesting dropping the players who usually get called up for worse players? How would that help us qualify. SW was good when called upon last campaign, good player to have around the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 I don't think a lack of effort is something you can accuse this Scotland team of tbh. Lack of quality yes but they clearly give their all. I think WGS does okay with the players we have available. Didn't see much effort in that Georgia game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmc Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Christ the manager is telling some players they will never play (like Rhodes ) cos they don't fit a system that sees us fail in a fairly easy group....ni find a system to fit josh magennis. .. and qualify......and we keep picking Chris Martin to back up this system. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmc Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Are you suggesting dropping the players who usually get called up for worse players? How would that help us qualify. SW was good when called upon last campaign, good player to have around the squad. Who is actually worse than Chris Martin n forrester? ?? Seriously? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionel hutz Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 It's not like we don't have the players...In the top half of the Premier League: (2)Phil Bardsley (Stoke City), Charlie Adam (Stoke),In the bottom half: (14)Stephen Kingsley (Swansea City), Jay Fulton (Swansea), Ikechi Anya (Watford), James Morrison (West Brom), Darren Fletcher (West Brom), James McArthur (Crystal Palace), Matt Richie (Bournemouth), Liam Bridcutt (Sunderland), George Boyd (Burnley), Jordan Rhodes (Middlesborough), Andy Robertson (Hull City), Allan McGregor (Hull City), Robert Snodgrass (Hull City), Shaun Maloney (Hull City)In the Top 8 in the Championship: (17)Steven Whittaker (Norwich), Russell Martin (Norwich), Graham Dorrans (Norwich), Steven Naismith (Norwich), Allan Hutton (Aston Villa), Gordon Greer (Brighton), Jamie Murphy (Brighton), Craig Forsyth (Derby), Craig Bryson (Derby), Chris Martin (Derby), Johnny Russell (Derby), Liam Palmer (Sheffield Wednesday), Ross Wallace (Sheffield Wednesday), Barry Bannan (Sheffield Wednesday), Christophe Berra (Ipswich Town), Ryan Fraser (Ipswich Town - on loan from Bournemouth), David Marshall (Cardiff City)In Top European Leagues: (3)Steven Fletcher (Marseilles), Ryan Gauld (Sporting CP), Barry Douglas (Konyaspor)In the top three of the Scottish Premiership: (22)Celtic have 8 regular first-team playersAberdeen have 6 regular first-team players (who played more than 20 games)Hearts have 6 regular first-team players (who played more than 20 games)That gives WGS a choice of 58 players to choose for Scotland (obvs. less than that given that some players will be past it etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grass Is Greener. Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Who is actually worse than Chris Martin n forrester? ?? Seriously? ? I don't see either of them starting a qualifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I don't see either of them starting a qualifier. You should give up trying to reason with folk in here. Strachan was doomed the moment he snubbed Rhodes, who's somehow getting better and better every time he fails to make a squad. The fact folk are genuinely wanting us to screw over the other ten players simply to create a system to fit Rhodes in, when we already have a striker who's scored more than Rhodes at the same level and who actually fits our system, says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erskjne Bridge Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 And that system is working? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeboy Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Harry Forrester has been capped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 And that system is working? Its what fits our best players so it gives us the best chance. If our best isnt good enough then so be it. This "change everything and we'll be brilliant" schtick is cretinous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 You should give up trying to reason with folk in here. Strachan was doomed the moment he snubbed Rhodes, who's somehow getting better and better every time he fails to make a squad. The fact folk are genuinely wanting us to screw over the other ten players simply to create a system to fit Rhodes in, when we already have a striker who's scored more than Rhodes at the same level and who actually fits our system, says it all. It's utterly bizarre. I realise the TA message board is basically a vestige of fascist nationalists and halfwits, but that doesn't explain why they want Rhodes ahead of everyone else. Rhodes doesn't offer nearly as much off the ball as any of the guys ahead of him. I think it's insane not having him in the squad, just in case they are scrambling for a last minute equaliser, but there's not much of a case at all for having him start against Italy and France. Different manage may have a different opinion, but Strachan's clearly not a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameus Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 You should give up trying to reason with folk in here. Strachan was doomed the moment he snubbed Rhodes, who's somehow getting better and better every time he fails to make a squad. The fact folk are genuinely wanting us to screw over the other ten players simply to create a system to fit Rhodes in, when we already have a striker who's scored more than Rhodes at the same level and who actually fits our system, says it all. This, and... It's utterly bizarre. I realise the TA message board is basically a vestige of fascist nationalists and halfwits, but that doesn't explain why they want Rhodes ahead of everyone else. Rhodes doesn't offer nearly as much off the ball as any of the guys ahead of him. I think it's insane not having him in the squad, just in case they are scrambling for a last minute equaliser, but there's not much of a case at all for having him start against Italy and France. Different manage may have a different opinion, but Strachan's clearly not a fan. ...this. The bolded part especially. Rhodes is a great finisher. But that's really all he is. I'd liken him to Michael Owen in a way, a player that was absolutely deadly in his early career, but football moved on to need more from a striker that he couldn't fulfill. Back in the day Rhodes would have been a 100-cap striker and probably in the value bracket Alan Shearer found himself in. But now pretty much every forward is going to need more to his game. Rhodes doesn't have that. Could he develop it playing in the Premier League? Possibly, but I doubt it. He'll give it a good go though, and I imagine we'll see him in squads during this campaign. The panty-wetting around him is bizarre, like you say. I wouldn't necessarily describe not having him in the squad as "insane". Fans often fall into the trap of applying their own knowledge as fact, but I like to think that someone who has been in the game as long as Gordon Strachan (or any manager) can look at a player with different eyes than the average fan. He can draw on the knowledge of other managers who have seen that player, and then he can decide who best to fit in. At the moment he thinks Chris Martin is the one to fill that all important "striker-who-will-rarely-play" slot. And why not? He's scored plenty in the Championship, just like Rhodes. Admittedly, he hasn't shown it at all for Scotland, but given that he - along with Rhodes - is unlikely to displace the first choice strikers, it's not that big of an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Fair enough I was only 10-15 when Owen was playing at his peak but he was a completely different player to Rhodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordopolis Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 This, and... ...this. The bolded part especially. Rhodes is a great finisher. But that's really all he is. I'd liken him to Michael Owen in a way, a player that was absolutely deadly in his early career, but football moved on to need more from a striker that he couldn't fulfill. Back in the day Rhodes would have been a 100-cap striker and probably in the value bracket Alan Shearer found himself in. But now pretty much every forward is going to need more to his game. Rhodes doesn't have that. Could he develop it playing in the Premier League? Possibly, but I doubt it. He'll give it a good go though, and I imagine we'll see him in squads during this campaign. The panty-wetting around him is bizarre, like you say. I wouldn't necessarily describe not having him in the squad as "insane". Fans often fall into the trap of applying their own knowledge as fact, but I like to think that someone who has been in the game as long as Gordon Strachan (or any manager) can look at a player with different eyes than the average fan. He can draw on the knowledge of other managers who have seen that player, and then he can decide who best to fit in. At the moment he thinks Chris Martin is the one to fill that all important "striker-who-will-rarely-play" slot. And why not? He's scored plenty in the Championship, just like Rhodes. Admittedly, he hasn't shown it at all for Scotland, but given that he - along with Rhodes - is unlikely to displace the first choice strikers, it's not that big of an issue. TBF it was injury that f*cked Owen at 25/26. As for Rhodes, there seems to be a general feeling that he's not going to displace Fletcher for the big games, but it's a bit odd that he's completely blanked for the squads. I think that's the rational argument here: As long as he keeps delivering for his club (in the EPL now), it seems a little bonkers to deny ourselves his services should certain games need them (starting against weaker opposition or coming on in the last 20/30 mins in other games). We can call up 4 or 5 strikers - I'd always use one of those slots for an out and out finisher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameus Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 TBF it was injury that f*cked Owen at 25/26. As for Rhodes, there seems to be a general feeling that he's not going to displace Fletcher for the big games, but it's a bit odd that he's completely blanked for the squads. I think that's the rational argument here: As long as he keeps delivering for his club (in the EPL now), it seems a little bonkers to deny ourselves his services should certain games need them (starting against weaker opposition or coming on in the last 20/30 mins in other games). We can call up 4 or 5 strikers - I'd always use one of those slots for an out and out finisher. True, but football had moved on in that time. Had he had a little bit more to his game then pacey finisher, he might have still been able to make something of himself after that. I agree with the rest, and like I said, he's probably going to be in squads for this campaign unless he completely flops in the Premier League. But people need to get away from equating what he does with Middlesbrough with what he could do for Scotland. For an example, pick current figure of derision Chris Martin. Boro can probably afford to build a team around him if that's what they choose to do, given they've now got all the riches to fit players that will suit him. We couldn't be further from that. But if he's scoring in the Premier League, he should be in the squad to fill the final ten Chris Martin slot. Fair enough I was only 10-15 when Owen was playing at his peak but he was a completely different player to Rhodes. It was maybe a poor example. I didn't say they were the same kind of player, just that they were both players well and truly parked in one corner in terms of ability. You wouldn't have left Owen up front on his own and booted balls up to him as a target man. And you don't put Rhodes up there on his own to try and bring midfielders into the game. They're both limited players, and I'd argue they're both players who the game has developed to leave behind a little. Rhodes less so than Owen of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Rhodes can really make his case cast iron by performing in the Premier League. If he does, I suspect he will be included alongside Martin, rather than replacing him. Martin's their battering ram guy. It's rather unfair - he has to chase 50 yard punts over his head and then gets pilloried for not creating chances or linking play. I doubt Rhodes would react well to being asked to do that. There may also be a character issue? I get the impression Liam Bridcutt isn't quite personality Strachan is looking for. That said, I would have said the same about Matty Phillips, but he seems to have played himself back into the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameus Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 We just want Strachan to pick a good team and players who are on form rather than his usual lot who clearly are not good enough. Unless you believe 3rd/4th positions is fine of course. We have the players ( check this thread) but Strachan does not play them in my opinion to there full potential. But it's not that simple. You can't just pick the form players and throw them in and hope it sticks. As Alf Ramsay said to Jack Charlton back when England did something (can't quite remember what) - "I don't pick the best players, I pick the players I need". It's all very well sorting the players and picking the 11 best, but are they going to be able to go into a team and perform as a unit? We should be moving more towards the working as a unit idea, not further away from it. For example, I would much rather have a right-back who is maybe not in form, but has played alongside the rest of the back 4 for a few games, rather than just throwing in someone who has had a few good games for their club. Ronaldo, Messi and Suarez are probably the best three players in the World, but if you put them together in a forward line, would they be as good as they are apart? And that's the best players in the World. Rhodes can really make his case cast iron by performing in the Premier League. If he does, I suspect he will be included alongside Martin, rather than replacing him. Martin's their battering ram guy. It's rather unfair - he has to chase 50 yard punts over his head and then gets pilloried for not creating chances or linking play. I doubt Rhodes would react well to being asked to do that. There may also be a character issue? I get the impression Liam Bridcutt isn't quite personality Strachan is looking for. That said, I would have said the same about Matty Phillips, but he seems to have played himself back into the squad. I doubt the scything tackle he put in against Denmark helped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmc Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Noone sensible is saying we should start rhodes but we dont have the resources to throw away a player like him. Has he really being given a fair chance to fit into our 'system '? If ni can find a way to qualify with guys like magennis then maybe our system isnt so hot? The recent friendlies were a chance to look at alternatives which we havent done. In last campaign we were fortunate to scrape one nil wins at home to georgia n roi....plus we beat a pub team. This much vaunted system hasnt worked. To not even try an alternative and carry on blindly hoping somehow results will improve is crazy. Rhodes isnt going to carry Scotland to a brave new era of qualifying but neither are proven failures like martin. Id love to be wrong but this has all the feel of the stubbornness of levein and another wasted qualifying campaign incoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameus Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Noone sensible is saying we should start rhodes but we dont have the resources to throw away a player like him. Has he really being given a fair chance to fit into our 'system '? If ni can find a way to qualify with guys like magennis then maybe our system isnt so hot? The recent friendlies were a chance to look at alternatives which we havent done. In last campaign we were fortunate to scrape one nil wins at home to georgia n roi....plus we beat a pub team. This much vaunted system hasnt worked. To not even try an alternative and carry on blindly hoping somehow results will improve is crazy. Rhodes isnt going to carry Scotland to a brave new era of qualifying but neither are proven failures like martin. Id love to be wrong but this has all the feel of the stubbornness of levein and another wasted qualifying campaign incoming. Whether it's worked or not, it still makes the most of the resources we have. Our strengths are in our midfielders, hence why we have Fletcher playing up front trying to get them into the game. Just saying "let's start a new system" isn't really going to work. If we had a creative midfielder who could pick a pass out of nothing for Rhodes to feed off, then maybe we could work towards that. But we don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calum_gers Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Rhodes might useful for the last 10-15 if we need a goal, but in reality McCormack got 23 in the championship, Rhodes 17 & Martin 16. I can't really get too worked up about Rhodes missing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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